In our latest episode of Recruiting Insider, we tackled an important and timely topic: women in leadership. Joining us for this insightful discussion is the remarkable April Little, a seasoned executive coach with a wealth of experience supporting women in their professional journeys. This episode is packed with inspiration and practical advice for anyone looking to advance their career, particularly those navigating the complexities of leadership roles.
April’s journey to success is both compelling and relatable. From her early career days when she felt stuck and unfulfilled, to rising through the ranks to become a Vice President of Human Resources, April has an impressive story to tell. Throughout our conversation, she shared pivotal moments that shaped her career and the lessons learned along the way. Her openness about facing and overcoming obstacles offers valuable perspective for those currently grappling with their own challenges.
One of the primary themes of our discussion was the importance of building a strong personal brand. April emphasized that a well-defined personal brand not only sets you apart in the workplace but also serves as a foundation for career advancement. She shared practical strategies for women to articulate their unique strengths and values, which is especially crucial in environments where women might face bias or underestimation.
Navigating bias in the workplace was another critical topic we explored. April provided insights into recognizing the subtle forms of bias that can impact women’s careers, from microaggressions to unconscious stereotypes. Her advice on how to address these biases head-on was empowering, encouraging women to advocate for themselves and assert their value in professional settings. Listeners will benefit from her suggestions on approaching these sensitive topics with both confidence and tact.
Breaking through barriers is something many aspiring leaders struggle with, and April shared her effective strategies for overcoming these challenges. She stressed the importance of resilience, networking, and seeking mentorship as tools to help women not only reach leadership roles but also thrive once they get there. This part of the conversation was especially inspiring, providing concrete steps that listeners can take to forge their paths.
Another compelling discussion point was the significance of self-advocacy. April shared personal stories that illustrated how advocating for herself at pivotal moments led to new opportunities and growth. She encouraged listeners to recognize their accomplishments and communicate their aspirations, demystifying the fear many women have about self-promotion in the workplace. This honest talk highlighted the need for women to be their own best advocates as they navigate their careers.
Our episode also addressed the importance of mentorship, both as a mentor and a mentee. April spoke about her experiences mentoring others and the profound impact this has had on her career and perspective. She urged our listeners to seek out mentors who resonate with their values and career objectives, fostering relationships that provide guidance, support, and insight. The mutual benefits of mentorship are clear, and April’s passion for this topic is contagious.
The heart of our conversation centered on achieving full potential, a theme that resonated deeply with both April and me. This episode serves not only as a guide for women aspiring to leadership positions but also as a source of motivation for seasoned executives facing their own challenges. April’s insights are a reminder that career growth is an ongoing journey, not a destination. It’s about continually pushing boundaries and embracing change.
As we wrapped up our discussion, April left us with a powerful call to action: to embrace our journeys with openness and authenticity. No matter where you are in your career, the insights shared in this episode offer something for everyone. From practical advice on navigating workplace challenges to uplifting stories of triumph, April’s words are bound to inspire and empower listeners to take charge of their careers.
Be sure to tune into this episode of Recruiting Insider, where you’ll find not just guidance, but a supportive community that believes in the power of women in leadership. Whether you’re looking to make your next career move, seeking inspiration, or simply curious about the nuances of leadership in today’s corporate world, this episode is a must-listen!
Watch and listen here. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review!! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2jIAnlmpo6XFrrulhGJEeh?si=iT_zyG3ITpek7w8mBSt6UA
YouTube: https://youtu.be/aY8twT59zj8
Transcript:
Mary (00:00.896)
April Little, welcome to Recruiting Insider.
April Little (00:04.395)
Good to be here.
Mary (00:07.256)
I’m so excited that you’re here because, I mean, you’re a huge inspiration for me, honestly. You have a quarter of a million followers on LinkedIn, and I mean, you still find the time to interact on my posts, to chat with me through messaging, and to sit down with me today. So I think you’re awesome. And of course.
April Little (00:31.165)
I that. And I will say this, more in my rotation, I do support creators, like content that I’m still interested in. Some of that content is still recruiting. A lot of it is career coaching and then just other areas of life I’m interested in. So I follow like some fitness folks. So I try to make sure that my feed is filled with things that I’m genuinely like holistically interested in. So you are in my rotation.
Mary (00:49.145)
Yeah.
Mary (00:57.004)
I love that and I feel honored to be in that rotation. truly do. So April is an executive coach who works with ambitious women to build their confidence and land promotions on their path to becoming executives. And April, I know that you’ve been through a lot of the struggles that you help your clients with today.
I mean, really just working long hours to prove your worth, taking on more responsibilities without the support, struggling to make your voice heard and really just kind of feeling stuck. So today we’re going to discuss really how women in leadership can overcome challenges, build a really strong personal brand and also successfully pursue opportunities for
career advancement. So can you share more about your own personal journey from, you know, really feeling stuck to becoming this really successful vice president of human resources and what were some of the key turning points for you?
April Little (02:06.593)
Sure, so thank you for that. So I’ve shared this story before. I got saddled with 50K in debt to get this fancy master’s degree in human resources because I thought that would be my ticket into HR. And all to graduate to become a volunteer as a recruiter. I know I had to eat a lot of humble pie to do that.
Mary (02:16.418)
Mm
Mary (02:24.067)
Yeah.
April Little (02:29.755)
I did not have to volunteer, so to anyone listening, sometimes when I tell that story people will say, well, it’s a privilege to be able to volunteer. Most people have to use any free time they have to make money. I certainly did too. I will say at that time I didn’t have a family and all that. So take that very lightly for your situation, apply that to your situation. But I did only volunteer on Fridays for about two hours in my time.
for a few months before I landed a recruiter role. And from there, I’ve done tons of recruiting, staffing, recruiting, and then talent acquisition, recruiting for engineering roles, healthcare, nursing roles, academic roles, engineering roles, cleared roles for government contractors, and then recruiting to build up our startup into hyper growth. No longer at the startup now.
But that’s been my long career, like that’s the long of it. And then the last year, last year and a half of my career I spent in HR, HR is not a favorite area of mine. I spent the entire part of my career handing out offer letters. So it was difficult for me to hand out pink slips. And so I would say just going back to your earlier question,
Mary (03:43.83)
Mm. Mm.
April Little (03:51.553)
for that first 10 years of my career, was pretty stagnant, didn’t want to be a leader, had seen some examples of good leaders, but lots of examples of bad leaders, and then that kind of shapes your experiences or your thoughts about, do I want to lead? And so I didn’t until I started leading anyway. And you find that people, that once you’ve started leading and once you are really good at your job, you’re going to be called on to lead.
Mary (04:11.021)
Hmm.
April Little (04:20.991)
whether that’s taking over, taking point, being point on a project, being point in a meeting, you start leading. And so it was really by seeing possibility models. So I will say that we always say comparison is a thief of joy, but I would say only if you let it, meaning.
if you are comparing to improve, which is very different, more possibility modeling, you can start to see that certain things are possible for you with people who have similar stories or similar trajectories. And that started to happen for me where I started to see that. And I made a decision somewhere at year 10 of my career in HR that I wanted to start accelerating my career. I knew I always wanted to work for myself and I thought it would be great to exit my career doing what I wanted to do.
Mary (05:08.93)
Mm -hmm.
April Little (05:09.329)
So I started really picking up momentum. I became a senior recruiter. Then I became a lead. Then I moved into a manager role. Then I moved into a senior manager role, a director role, and a VP all in a five -year period. So I started accelerating my career over about five years. And that’s because I knew that I wanted more.
and it became progressively easier as you start to pace yourself. You’re like, I can do that. I can lead people and I can actually want to develop them and also help them grow their career as well. So that’s what I did is I really just took more of a, I’m in charge of my career. I want this to happen. I have to do it.
Mary (05:43.737)
Mm.
Mary (05:51.754)
Mm, yeah. You progressed really, really quickly. mean, it sounds like you really climbed the corporate ladder.
quickly within that five years. But I think, you know, I chat with a lot of women who are either in executive level positions or they’re trying to get to leadership positions or executive level roles and they just kind of feel stuck. You know, they may have even been in there for a lot longer than you, you know, more than that five year timeframe where they may have been, you know, have a 15 year career, a 25 year career, but they still feel like they’re stuck at either this, you know, lead role or maybe a senior manager role where they’re trying to
to climb into a director of VP level position. What advice do you have for women who are really feeling stuck in their careers and unsure really what that next step is?
April Little (06:42.987)
Yeah, so I totally understand where I resonate when you say feeling stuck. Typically think about why you’re stuck. Are you stuck because you’re bored? You’ve reached position mastery. I actually had this conversation with a career coach friend of mine earlier today where we talked a little bit about what would you say, you know, we just asked each other, what are you telling people when you say, when they say they’re bored?
Mary (07:09.112)
Mm.
April Little (07:10.015)
they say they’re ready to move up but their company is saying they need to earn their stripes. Sit on the bench. And that often happens when there’s a lot of people in the organization, a lot of people on succession where you do have to sit a little bit longer. But I do think that you have to ask yourself have I reached position mastery independent of what’s going on in the environment?
Mary (07:14.072)
Mm.
April Little (07:30.037)
Most people can reach position mastery in one to two years. We know that that’s true because we’ve seen people fast track across the board. If you go on LinkedIn right now and you see the promotion lines, you know it’s possible to reach position mastery. It doesn’t take longer. You start feeling stuck when you’re not being challenged, when maybe you’re earning but not learning or learning but not earning.
And so it’s identifying why you’re stuck, why you feel stuck first. I think there’s questions you have to ask yourself. And then what is it that you did to get unstuck? And this is actually a question that I use to qualify my coaching clients. What have you tried before you come to me?
Mary (08:08.302)
Mm.
April Little (08:10.861)
So once you do that and you think about what is it that you’ve tried, then you start thinking about, okay, I now need to work on some of these things. And I think you also have to ask yourself, am I stuck or am I being pegged to be stuck, right? So if you’re doing a great job and you’re feeling like nothing’s happening,
Mary (08:26.487)
Mm. Yeah.
April Little (08:32.801)
it is starting to get really vocal with your manager because most times once you’re stuck, you’ve already put some skin in the game, you’ve been with your company a long time. I’m not the coach that uses, that says quit as a way to solve everything. I do think that’s the answer a lot of the 50 % of the time, but I do think it’s really important that you build up your endurance before going to another job. Right? And so it’s starting to be very vocal about what is it that you want to do.
Mary (08:46.635)
Mm
Mary (08:54.242)
Yeah.
April Little (09:00.051)
with your manager on that if you feel like you’ve done everything and I have had clients who have, that is when you activate your search. But in the meantime, continue using your job as a training ground to ensure that never happens again.
Mary (09:11.138)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people out there are like, you know, April, that makes a lot of sense. I, but I just can’t pinpoint where I’m stuck or why I’m stuck. Could you give us some, know, maybe an example of a client that you’ve worked with and
how you really helped them uncover you know what exactly is making them stuck and you know some actionable steps that they took to really get out of that to take that next move up.
April Little (09:44.405)
Yeah, so I actually had a client who stayed in her role and what we identified is she felt stuck, right? But there was still some imposter syndrome that was stopping her from being vocal about some of the things that she was doing. Because at the end of the day, as Sahil Bloom says, we are more important to ourselves than we are to other people. And so it is important for you to start.
Mary (09:59.992)
Mm.
Mary (10:08.408)
Yeah.
April Little (10:13.281)
professionally bragging, right? Self promoting yourself. And I noticed that there was a confidence issue with that and that’s what kept her stuck. And so we worked together on finding ways that didn’t require her to feel like she was code switching or becoming something unnatural to herself as she did that. And some of those ways was bringing people into the fold with sharing what they’ve done to win.
Mary (10:14.69)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (10:20.078)
Yeah.
April Little (10:37.619)
And so that thing that they did to win, could be an example of, know, we worked really hard on this project. I want to thank you for helping you, for helping. We all worked super hard and I’m proud to share this. That is a form of humble bragging, right? Without being cringy. And I have found that the number one reason a lot of people have been stuck is because they are suffering in silence, hoping other people hear their pain.
Mary (10:51.554)
Mm -hmm.
April Little (11:04.905)
It’s important to make sure that you’re being vocal about what you want to do.
Mary (11:09.44)
Yeah, I love that. It’s important to know, it’s important to be vocal about what you want to do because I think that is a big part of it is…
you know, that visibility piece where, you know that you’re doing all of these great things. You’ve got your head down, you’re working really hard, you’re achieving all of these great things. You are, you know, exceeding the expectations within the position and you’re ready to take that next step, but you’re, you’re stuck because, you know, like you said, maybe it’s that imposter syndrome or, or maybe it’s just that, you know, the people around you don’t know what you’re doing and they don’t know what you’re achieving. so I.
completely agree and I think that this resonates with a lot of people out there, know, listening right now too is that, you know, you have to get people on your side. You need to share what you’re doing. And I love the idea of professionally bragging too. And I talk about that a lot too, cause you know, I work with resumes and I work with, you know, a lot of,
leaders and executives and writing a resume. And I’m always encouraging a break sheet because not only will that help you update your resume, but when it comes to, you know, one -on -ones with your boss or, you know, trying to get that promotion or take that next step, it can really be a good, you know, launch point or starting point for you to start having those types of conversations and to really give you the confidence to, be able to have those conversations because you have the numbers and the actions.
right there to back it up.
April Little (12:45.759)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think, know, Mary, you bring up a fantastic point, especially as a writer yourself, about the role your resume plays in this, right? The bullets on your resume should very well be something you can press a button on and expand on an interview. It should be something you should be able to press on and expand on when there’s an opportunity for you to showcase what you’ve done, especially in a high -stakes situation.
Mary (13:12.26)
Exactly.
April Little (13:15.499)
where there’s a larger audience and you want them to become familiar with who you are. And I do think keeping a Braque sheet, working on your resume regularly is building your muscle, your confidence muscle. Yeah.
Mary (13:27.298)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love it. It’s, for me, when I’m working with a client, the best feeling is when they come back to me and they’re like, my gosh, I would hire myself. You know, they’re like, this makes me feel really good and it should, you know, your resume. It’s it is it’s it’s an outline. It’s a it’s a marketing document for what you what you’ve done and what you’ve accomplished. Yeah, absolutely. And so.
April Little (13:49.919)
Yeah. And it shouldn’t be an emergency procedure, right?
Mary (13:54.858)
No, exactly. It shouldn’t be. Yeah. It should be an ongoing practice that you’re doing every single month, you know, every couple of months, whatever it might be. And so I want to pivot a little bit because I know that you’ve also talked a lot about bias in the workplace and, specifically how women struggle to make their voices heard and really a male dominated field and industry.
So how can women executives really navigate, you know, really the often subtle forms of bias and discrimination that they might come up against?
April Little (14:36.833)
So I think that one of the things that I always say when we’re dealing with any type of workplace dynamic is I like to practice the charity principle if it’s not egregious. And the thing about in most work environments and what I’ve seen with most of my clients is when they are dealing with some type of bias or something continues to happen or something is happening to them.
it’s quieter than maybe the way we would think it would present. It’s not usually like, hey, you’re stupid. It usually doesn’t happen that way. It’s a lot quieter. Which is why it requires some emotional endurance. So I never tell people not to stick up for yourself, but I always say that when you practice the charity principle once and you establish a pattern, then you have irrefutable evidence to begin advocating for yourself. For example,
Mary (15:07.298)
Yeah, sure.
April Little (15:30.537)
If you notice that maybe someone is not letting you speak, which often happens with women, they might be interrupted, maybe they’re not being called on in a meeting, maybe, okay, charity principle, it happened once, all right, it started happening two, three times, then it’s time to go acknowledge. I noticed that our conversations are really spirited, so I do use a framework, acknowledging.
Mary (15:37.517)
Mm
April Little (15:54.741)
going in and asking and then taking some action. I noticed that our conversations have been really spirited and everyone hasn’t been able to get to get to talk, but wanted to just see if you had any concerns about me sharing my views. They’re probably gonna say no, right? Are you sure? Cause I noticed on April 7th, we cut the meeting off and I tried to raise my hand. And then again on the 16th and again on the 18th and again on the 20th. At that point, you’ve built a pattern.
Mary (16:09.134)
Yeah, sure.
April Little (16:23.167)
to call the person out at that point to help them understand, this is my experience of you. It’s starting to advocate for yourself. And I always say if you’re looking to nip things in the butt yourself without going to your manager, especially because when you’re at a higher level, you are expected to diffuse a lot of your own situations at work.
do believe in letting things happen in a pattern because at that point it’s not, man, you couldn’t just cut me some slack, it happened once. No, but it happened six times. No, it happened two times, it happened three times. Now, this doesn’t mean that if you’re seeing something that’s just inherently biased that you call the person completely out and say, can I talk to you after this meeting? Absolutely. But the thing that I’m describing is for most of my clients, it’s slightly quieter and you have to establish a pattern.
to let people know, hey, I am acutely aware of what’s going on. How can we fix this?
Mary (17:20.708)
And I think it’s those quiet biases that are the toughest. And I think that’s great advice.
Like you said, if you write things down, write down exactly what happened, write down the date, write down the time, because then if you do have those conversations with that person, you have all of that information at hand and you’re not just, you know, coming out then with without any evidence to back that up. And then, you know, if they get defensive and you can’t, you know, back it up and then you get nervous and you know, the conversation just won’t go as well.
April Little (17:46.017)
Yeah.
Mary (17:57.65)
as if you go in just really prepared with this is what happened, you know, this is exactly when it happened, this is exactly what happened, and this is how, you know, I think we could resolve it. Yeah.
April Little (18:10.133)
Yeah, yeah. And I do think, and I would say this too, that I often get people who are concerned that maybe someone’s being sexist or racist. The thing is, is that the way that typically presents at work is exclusion.
Mary (18:28.206)
Mm.
April Little (18:28.933)
It’s not really at the face of it exactly those two things. That could be the root cause, which is why the person needs to be addressed because some of the challenges you’re having at work, that could be the root cause of why that person’s treating you that way, but it’s your job to let them know, notice you’re treating me this way.
Mary (18:30.563)
Yeah.
Mary (18:44.824)
Yeah, since we’re on the topic of overcoming challenges, I’m sure you have faced your fair share of challenges in the corporate world. Could you share a personal experience with us and in the face of those challenges or possibly even setbacks, how did you build resilience?
April Little (19:06.037)
Yeah. Hmm.
April Little (19:12.617)
I inherited, so I got promoted and I got a promotion like many of us are aware of. I call it the expansion promotion. So when you’re promoted and your title changes and you get a raise but your actual old role was not filled, that is just what I call an expansion promotion, expanded duties. And you’re getting a raise in lieu of another person.
I struggled because I had a flat organization, which I often talk about a lot, Mary, because I do find that that happens a lot in talent acquisition, that leaders will be working at the highest levels and they have a lot of people reporting directly to them even if they’re hourly. And I had a situation where I had 14 direct reports and I had oversight of both the recruiting and the onboarding. So it meant that I touched the recruiting from end end, from the point of bringing the person into the funnel from sourcing to the point of them starting their first day and having their backgrounds done.
Mary (19:46.265)
Yeah.
April Little (20:09.121)
getting ready. That was a challenging role for me, specifically because, again, it was flat and I had no help and I couldn’t get a supervisor. And it was challenging as well because I was working tons of hours. So one of the things that I did was I did build a case for a supervisor and I started, I still wasn’t approved by the way.
So this story doesn’t end perfectly, but it still ends well. I started really delegating to my team strengths. So I functionally aligned my team and I functionally aligned them by the functions they were recruiting for, which made them more of point for that function so that I wasn’t always the center. So that was also me helping them become leaders too. So if someone had to only recruit for finance, there’s no reason why you can’t reach out to our finance point of contact for TA.
versus just me. So starting to do those things, right? Also getting them raises to be able to take that on. That was the highlight of that. And in doing that, in helping and taking on more of a succession mindset that really helped me build up my resilience to be able to handle the role I was in it. And I still think of that as a success story, even though I was never able to get a supervisor, but I always left that role feeling like, man.
Could I not have handled that? And when I left, I was replaced with three people.
Mary (21:40.282)
my goodness. Wow.
April Little (21:43.403)
So that’s always been a story that I like to share as I was validated in my thinking. I decided to be resilient even without the resources and I really kind of utilized my team and just restructured them appropriately. And that helped me wear that role. That helped me really be successful in that role.
Mary (22:02.115)
Mm.
Mary (22:05.602)
Wow, that’s a powerful story of resilience. Thank you for sharing that.
April Little (22:10.405)
You’re welcome.
Mary (22:13.188)
So I want to shift just a little bit again, because I know I want to cover a few different areas within leadership today. Could you talk to me about the components of building a strong leadership brand? how can you really use it? I guess how can powerful women leaders truly cultivate their own personal brand?
April Little (22:37.683)
Yeah, so I think internally it is, so there’s two dimensions. think internally when you think about I want to be known for something, you want to begin leading with your expertise eventually to move into leading as a leader, right? So you’re gonna start building your brand and you’re gonna get known from leading with your expertise, but eventually people need to see you as that leader.
which is why there are so many situations where people can pivot from working in one function and still lead and move to a whole other function where they don’t have any touch expertise and still lead. So it’s deciding what kind of leader do you want to be. Do you want to lead with your expertise or do you want to be the visionary leader? And I think you have to make that decision around your brand.
going to stick with visionary because leading with your expertise, leading as a functional expert can get a lot of us in trouble. So in terms of deciding that you want to be a part of that, think the next thing is right. So it’s deciding if you want to be that more visionary leader. It’s making sure that you’re showing up that way, that you’re not the first to start volunteering for the work, and that maybe you’re the first to share an idea to inspire, inform, or influence.
Mary (23:35.532)
Yeah.
April Little (23:55.913)
It’s making sure that you’re building relationships adjacent to the function you’re in to know more about the greater organization. It’s making sure that when you speak, you’re clear and concise and you’re compelling. Basically what it is, your brand, is more so what I call your internal uniform. So that means, Mary, I know what I’m gonna get and what to expect with you because there is some continuity with how you show up every day. Not how you dress, how you show up.
How you decide to deal with people. Are you fair and balanced? Is that consistent? When you speak, are people clear? Are they motivated to do the work? So it’s starting to build your brand through consistency. People need to start to expect something from you. They need to know if there’s something that happens, they know how you’re probably going to process this.
And so that’s how you start to build your brand. It’s starting to be consistent in how you interact, how you work the product you deliver. That also means that you’re practicing excellence. Someone did ask the question a few months ago on a live event, can I make a mistake? Well, you want your brand to be around excellence, right? So you can make mistakes when you’re growing your career, as long as you have runway of excellence in between those errors. It can’t be.
So everything that you do, if there’s nothing you take away as being consistent in what you do.
Mary (25:27.16)
So you mentioned that being a functional expert tends to get us in trouble. Can you talk a little bit more about that? That was an intriguing statement.
April Little (25:37.227)
So being the functional expert sometimes means that when people come to you, no one else can do that. And the whole point of you being a leader is also to create other leaders. And so it’s cloning yourself in the way in which you’re letting people be who they are, but you’re also empowering them to be able to get the work done too. If you are the functional expert, for example, I had someone like this. I had a client who works in marketing at a large educational company right now.
and she leads a team of like five marketers. One of the things we struggled with was her actually being able to get her day job done because she had to be in every meeting, even though her team was functionally aligned. So she might have had a digital marketer, know, and she had an in -demand marketer, all that, right? But she needed to be on the meetings and she was always getting the invites. And that made it really difficult for her to do her job. So.
what we decided to do, what we, so just the result of that, her leading with her functional expertise meant that she was the point of contact for everything.
Mary (26:47.25)
you
April Little (26:48.289)
She had to sit in on the meetings. You got these high paid resources and they’re not in on the meetings. And part of that, what we had to do was really reset expectations and say, Bill is gonna be your point of contact for this meeting. And I don’t need to be in on the bi -weekly low stakes meetings between you all. This will free me up to join the high stakes meetings when Bill needs support when our SVPs are there. Right? And so that…
Mary (26:52.388)
Cheers.
April Little (27:17.759)
became difficult because people started to know her as the person that just got things done. They knew that as soon as they said something, she could just internalize it. And so the bad part of that was that she was the point of content and everybody wanted her for everything. And then she couldn’t work on those high visibility projects without losing sleep because then the leadership team only wanted her for certain things. And that’s because other projects that were more lower stakes should have really went to her team.
Mary (27:28.676)
Mm.
Mary (27:33.015)
Yeah.
Mary (27:38.542)
Mm.
Mary (27:43.512)
Yeah. Yep.
April Little (27:45.931)
So that’s a cautionary tale of what leading with your expertise looks like as a leader, still functioning in your expertise and there’s nothing wrong with it. I do think that part of building trust with your team is showing them that you know the way and you can still go the way. Right, like you can still do it. I certainly do, I know that there’s a lot of leaders that don’t have functional expertise but they’re just really good leaders. But I do find that I’ve respected the leaders who also are like, you know what?
Mary (28:01.152)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Mary (28:10.937)
Yeah.
April Little (28:15.495)
I know that you have bereavement going on. Don’t worry about your desk. Don’t worry about the emails. They’re going to all be deleted. I’ll take care of it. And sometimes with a leader who doesn’t, so I’m showing like the pick and pair contrast, they’re not able to do that. So it’s finding that balance and making sure that you empower your team.
Mary (28:21.39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary (28:28.899)
Mm.
Mary (28:33.634)
Yeah, I love that. And I love that you said too earlier how your brand is your internal brand, because I think that that’s a really powerful statement because, you know, just how you show up and the consistency.
and how you show up as a leader makes all of the difference in the world. And I’ve seen it throughout my own career. And I know I’ve had conversations with other clients and friends and colleagues and even family members and how they’ve had, whether it’s a positive or a negative experience with a boss. And really it comes down to that consistency and how they’re showing up.
So I love that you brought that into the conversation. I think that obviously building a, yep, no problem.
April Little (29:20.481)
I’m just changing the lighting a little bit.
April Little (29:25.737)
I felt bright towards the top. Yeah, no, you’re bringing up such great points.
Mary (29:26.942)
Yeah
Yeah, and I love that, you know, and of course, think, you know, building that strong personal brand is it’s really not optional at this point in the in world that we live in today.
April Little (29:46.419)
It’s not, it’s not. Everyone needs career insurance.
Mary (29:47.394)
Yeah. Yep, absolutely. And you know, another thing that I think is, has been at the top of my mind and I’ve seen this as a recurring theme on LinkedIn lately too, just the networking piece, you know, especially for women and women pursuing leadership and executive level roles. Why is networking so important and what are a few…
steps that our listeners could take today to really just you know fire up their networking strategy.
April Little (30:19.679)
Yeah, so you are bringing up a topic close to my heart. I feel like every person on LinkedIn, when you have a brand, you should have a contrarian view. I don’t, even though I’m a career coach, I hate networking.
Mary (30:31.524)
Okay.
Mary (30:35.268)
I would not have guessed that.
April Little (30:41.541)
I don’t think it’s the great solver of all of our problems when it comes to job search and when it comes to just securing a new opportunity. I think it works, but I can tell you from the last few clients that I’ve had, they have not gotten a job or an opportunity from a new relationship.
They’re great. And I’ll tell you that I practice what I preach. So even though I work for myself, I still take the same approach. You and I have been connected about six months, and we’ve been DMing, and then we made this happen. Saying here, I have someone else that I’ve been following. Recently interviewed the ex -VP of HR at Tesla. I had been following her three months, engaging with her prior to asking her to come on LinkedIn Live. I did the same with Robin Story two weeks ago. Been following her almost two years.
Mary (31:11.564)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
April Little (31:32.353)
I think that the thing that we forget about networking is that you are networking with people who are familiar to you. And that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work when you go to stuff, but it’s really thinking about it being more of a long -term game and it having some lead time in front of the new relationship you make. I might need six to 12 months in front of it if you just met about a coffee chat, right? They don’t know you well enough to say, you know what? I just met Mary yesterday, but I’m gonna refer her to this job.
Mary (32:01.412)
It doesn’t usually work that way.
April Little (32:02.017)
It doesn’t usually work that way. So what it really is, is thinking about keeping relationships warm with your sponsors, mentors, and peers, because they should work for you in two ways.
Internally, they work for you, Sponsors, mentors, and peers. And they have three different functions, but there’s one function when you leave the company. And that’s somebody who knows that you’re proven and they already have experience with you, so they don’t mind mentioning your name in rooms that you’re not in.
Mary (32:35.32)
I think the bottom line there is networking takes work. It’s that it takes so much work. can’t just, know, LinkedIn is awesome, but you you can build this huge, massive network. And if you don’t put the time in to build a relationship with the person or the people that you’re connected with, there’s, you’re really not going to get anything out of it.
April Little (32:39.521)
takes work.
Mary (33:00.748)
I mean, you know, the same could go for anybody that’s job searching, whether they’re job searching for an entry level role, a mid level role, or a leadership role. It’s like, if you want to use your network efficiently and effectively, you need to put in the time, you need to put in the work, you need to give the value before you can even expect anything out of that networking relationship.
April Little (33:25.535)
I couldn’t agree with you more. And you know, Mary, I think you might even post about this or someone. When everybody’s doing the same thing, you have to do something different. And everybody is shooting a DM right now.
Mary (33:31.789)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (33:36.217)
Yeah.
Mary (33:40.28)
Yeah.
April Little (33:43.281)
I want to caution you or I want to say continue to shoot the DM But don’t expect anything to come from it for six to twelve months until you get to know that person So it’s okay for you to do it. It’s just realize that You can’t create speed of trust in a couple DMS That’s gonna happen over time the same way we have criteria with how we pick our relationships and our friends That’s sort of the same thing even with an extended network people want to know about you. They want to know
Mary (33:50.798)
Yeah.
Mary (33:59.257)
Yeah.
April Little (34:12.843)
that they can trust who you are, that you’re consistent, and that they can put their name on you. And that takes several interactions. And there’s nothing wrong with it, it’s just the world we live in.
Mary (34:20.554)
sure. Yep. So what are what advice do you have for people that are like, well dang I thought I was doing everything right I’m making all these connections and I’m expanding my network. How can they start to build those deeper relationships so that they can leverage their network effectively?
April Little (34:41.321)
Yeah, so I think part of it is not reaching out when you need something. Right? The art of small talk. I notice you just had an update, a life change. Be genuinely interested in people and not for the purposes of getting something. Your initial message to someone should not have a question mark in there. Should not be, can you do this for me? So if you are worried about…
Mary (34:46.947)
Yeah.
Mary (34:53.529)
Yep.
Yeah.
Mary (35:01.422)
Yeah.
April Little (35:09.429)
You know, how to build those relationships. Think about any intersections that you have. I noticed that you posted about this show. There’s a woman in my DMs now. Never met her from a can of paint. She’s not interested in coaching, which is fine. I have amazing people I chat with. And we chat about House of Dragon every Sunday.
April Little (35:30.625)
Could she be a prospective client? She absolutely could, but that’s what we’re talking about right now. Eventually, right? So start thinking about intersections you have with people, the art of small talk, before you start asking for things. Your first inquiry to somebody shouldn’t be for a coffee chat. You should be familiar to them because you’re showing up in their comments and their likes, right? Yeah.
Mary (35:35.202)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Mary (35:49.112)
Yeah.
Mary (35:54.24)
Yep, I get that all the time where it’s like somebody jumps and they connect with me and then they jump right into my inbox and they’re like, do you have any software development needs? I’m like, this is where the conversation’s going immediately. Okay. And I’ve been guilty of that in my past too, where I’m like, you know, there’s something that I’m trying to accomplish and it’s
April Little (36:07.937)
Right. I’m not a microwave.
April Little (36:15.553)
Mm
Mary (36:16.106)
you know, sometimes people get lost. like, I want to talk to this person. I think this person would be really great for X or really great for Y. I want to connect with them and ask them right away. But it just, you know, your chances of them saying yes are significantly lower if you don’t start building that relationship before you ask for those favors.
April Little (36:34.975)
I agree. I agree. I agree. And I think that at that point too, it’s also how can you be of service? I noticed that you asked a question about this. I wanted to just share this feedback with you. So also think about how you can give and create that genuine connection. And then at that point, you know, think about kind of delighting the person when you do schedule the coffee chat.
and say you’re in a really social season of your career, think about putting together a small budget of like, I don’t know, five, five dollar Starbucks gift cards. Thank them for their time.
Mary (37:13.384)
Mm -hmm. Mm, that’s a great idea. And I also want to talk just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.
April Little (37:18.133)
Right? So nothing to break the bank. realize that some people listening to this are probably not working, so I’m not saying anything to break the bank. For the most part, when I am speaking, I am mostly speaking from the point of view of where most of my success comes from with my clients is proactive job search and career insurance job search, always being in that mode. So please, if anyone’s listening, I don’t want it to sound like it’s from a privileged mindset. It’s more so that that’s the audience that I serve.
Mary (37:24.812)
Sure.
Mary (37:37.858)
Yeah. Yep.
Mary (37:44.44)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I also want to talk just a little bit about career advancement because, you know, I know that a lot of us are just kind of out there working our asses off trying to find, you’re trying to advance in our career, right? So, you know, it just seems like many of us are just going about it in the wrong way and that advancement never happens.
What are some ways that executives can identify and pursue opportunities for career advancement?
April Little (38:18.783)
Yeah. So I also will add this too. I’ve recently made a change. So I’m working with women that mostly want to make incremental advancements into senior leadership. And by saying executive, I think I was scaring people off. That’s certainly where your goal is. So there’s definitely two groups on LinkedIn. You don’t need a title to be happy at work or you need a title. I’m in the other group. Like, do you want a title if you’re working with me? No.
Mary (38:45.028)
Well hey, yeah, of course.
April Little (38:47.721)
Right? Like if you’re going to invest, we’re going full Monty on this thing. So, I would say if you are looking to advance, you’re working your tail off, you’re working your tail off, that is a sign you’re leading with your expertise. First, if you’re working really hard. By the way, that doesn’t mean that you’re not working really hard.
Mary (39:03.928)
Yep.
April Little (39:10.246)
you’re working really hard. I think the first thing that you need to do is to vocalize your interest in where you want to go.
And even prior to that, think about one and two X in your career vision. So right now, if you’re a manager, what’s your in game? You want to be a VP? So that means putting together a roadmap, looking at career frameworks, right? Maybe even start with your company and look at what is the competencies I need to get there at each level. And how can I start acting a level above me without acting, without not acting my way, right? Like not doing the work above it. But how can I start embodying more?
Mary (39:34.457)
Mm.
Mary (39:41.06)
Yep.
April Little (39:49.266)
of acting at least a level higher. Now, you can mostly do that through influence. You can do that through making your manager’s job easier. Right? So start thinking about that. Start thinking about how you can start building strategic relationships based off of the gaps you have. Imposter syndrome is not always a bad thing. It also just points to what is it that you need to work on?
Mary (39:51.32)
Yeah.
Mary (40:09.241)
Yeah.
Mary (40:14.041)
Yeah.
April Little (40:15.061)
So if there’s this thing you’re afraid of doing, you have to start building your muscle and get repetitious. So if you don’t like speaking in front of people, start speaking and start small. Start small in your round robin, in your team meeting. Have something to share every meeting. By the way, if you have nothing to genuinely share, piggyback. know, piggyback, right? I don’t come from the school of thought that if you don’t share something that you’re not important, if you genuinely don’t have anything to add, you don’t have anything to add.
Mary (40:34.614)
Yep. Yep.
April Little (40:43.691)
but you can’t always not have anything to add.
April Little (40:48.927)
So think about starting to practice, starting to fill your gaps with those sponsors, mentors, and peers based on those gaps instead of trying to throw money at the problem and go back to school.
April Little (41:00.683)
So think about that. If you’re working really hard, there’s some things you need to step back and reassess. Where is it that you want to go? What are you doing that’s not working? And what is working by looking at some possibility models that work in terms of how they’ve grown? And you’ve got your map right there.
Mary (41:15.574)
Mm. Yep. I love that. And one thing that you mentioned in there was bringing in sponsors and mentors. And I’m a huge advocate for finding a great mentor. And I think it’s such a powerful way to really learn and grow in your career. And I’ve sought out a lot of mentors in my own life and in my own career, especially recently.
So in your opinion, what role does mentorship and sponsorship play specifically for, you know, again, women pursuing those leadership roles?
April Little (41:50.261)
yeah, so I think that your sponsor is somebody who has influence in the organization. There’s somebody who will be sharing you at the next nine box meeting when you are up for, when you’re just that little key card and they’re moving you around. That’s who they are. And you identify them based off of some areas that maybe you want to grow in.
Mary (42:04.246)
Yep.
April Little (42:12.843)
So if you notice somebody is an influencer, if you notice that every time they share a new idea, if you notice, another quick way to notice is if the company’s frozen, this is one way that worked for me. You know that somebody’s an influencer and they’re really compelling when maybe, so I just want you to find different ways, there’s different ways for you to think about how to find them. We had a freeze on staff on hiring new people and then all of a sudden one of my mentors got two new head counts.
Mary (42:23.203)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (42:40.868)
Hmm.
April Little (42:42.465)
Clearly she’s an influencer. She knows that stuff, right? So especially with us being in the law center. So that’s somebody you want to think about as a sponsor. And your goal with a sponsor is not to go in in the student seat the entire time. It is to go to them, you know, maybe after a couple meetings and you’re sharing with them, hey, I noticed that you do this really well.
Mary (42:44.036)
Clearly. Yeah.
April Little (43:03.059)
and this is actually an area of opportunity for me, I wanted to ask if it’s not too forward for you to be my sponsor. Can I meet with you bi -weekly every two weeks? And depending on how far up the chain they are, you may not be able to meet with them bi -weekly, right? If they’re a skip level, maybe that’s monthly. If they’re not, just a level above, maybe you can meet with them bi -weekly. And then with mentors, I think that…
you need two. So think you need two sponsors, I think you need two mentors, and I think you need one to two peers. So if you want to get really prescriptive, I think that’s what your cabinet cabinet should look like.
Mary (43:33.134)
Okay. Get prescriptive, girl.
April Little (43:39.669)
And so with your mentors, I think you should have one internal somebody who’s really tenured, really smart, somebody you look up to. Maybe they’re not an influencer, but they certainly can help you put yourself in situations to influence or to be seen by an influencer. So maybe that person’s tenured and that’s somebody that you use to just, you know, that’s the day -to -day person. Let’s get through this. You got this situation and then I think you need an external mentor. That person might be an ex -sponsor.
So the point is, is that I’m always looking to make sure that my clients are framed as an executive, that they have great emotional intelligence. And there will be drama as you move up. That doesn’t go away. In fact, it just slightly gets more covert, but you can still see it pretty clearly. And that’s where your external mentor, that was maybe your ex -sponsor come in, they know you really well and they can help you work through those situations. Because I wouldn’t want you to use your sponsor for that.
Mary (44:34.52)
Yeah, I love that. Yep.
April Little (44:35.457)
Then you have peers. So that could be somebody who’s an executive assistant. So when I last spoke to another executive, I asked her who was the most important person in her career. She said it was her EA. The person knew everything, right? They had been there a long time. These are the people that you might pass by their desk. They’re just as important. We all serve a role. And then with peer relationships, I would say be very discerning about who.
This is where I say friendships should not come in right away because if you’re both climbers, I wouldn’t want there to be any drama and things like that. So definitely discern as you pick. I would say discernment is even more key at the peer -to -peer level.
Mary (45:17.206)
And this is a question that I’ve, I’ve been dying to ask because I’ve been struggling a lot with this myself over the last couple of weeks. And, you know, I’ve always been an endurance athlete. So, you know, I pride myself on running really long races and just really being super persistent in what I do. And I was listening to a podcast last week and
I think it was the boss babe podcast and she was sharing her own personal story about burnout, right? She’s a super high powered executive. She runs her own, I mean, multi seven figure business and she just reached a breaking point. She burned herself out. I mean, she literally couldn’t get out of bed for weeks. I mean, hit a literal wall. And I think that a lot of my listeners are really high achievers. They’re, know, they’re really motivated to advance in their career, but
April Little (45:49.611)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (46:11.266)
I think that balance is also really important. And if there’s really one thing that I’ve learned lately, it’s that balance is important because I’ve been go, go, go, going and, you know, have kind of hit that wall, you know, myself over the last couple of weeks and I’ve been climbing over it. But once you hit it, it’s really hard to keep going forward until you climb over that wall. So how can our listeners really maintain a healthy work -life balance while also achieving all of those really high career goals?
April Little (46:40.961)
Yeah, so I would say this, that I am more of a fan of work -life integration than balance. I always struggled trying to get off work at five and it just never worked for me. You know, right? It just trailed at home because you were trying to separate it. But it wasn’t until I started working remotely as a recruiter, maybe 10 years, maybe 12 years ago at this point, and I had a coworker who was, green, her light was always on at…
Mary (46:53.773)
It’s hard. It’s so hard. Yeah.
April Little (47:09.889)
8 a and it didn’t go red until 8 p and so I asked her I was like are you really working and she was like no I’m not you know and I I had a one -on -one with her and I said so what what are you doing and she was like I practice work -life integration I have to go pick up my kids I come back work for four hours I have lunch I go to the gym then I come back and work and then I go pick my kids up do some laundry make dinner and I continue working from
Mary (47:13.496)
Mm.
April Little (47:40.673)
And so she still got her work done, but she integrated her life and that made things a lot easier versus you’re technically working more hours. If you can’t finish things up by five o ‘clock, go pick up the kids versus signing back in at eight anyway. So I think if there’s ever an opportunity to integrate what you do, and I do realize that in the year of our law at 2024, we are now not talking about remote work. We’re talking about hybrid work.
Mary (47:44.889)
Yeah.
Mary (47:54.914)
Yeah, I love that. That work -life integration. Yeah.
Yeah.
April Little (48:09.941)
that’s not a perfect fit. But if you are ever able in a position to even negotiate with your manager to sort of have a longer work day if you can, especially on your remote days, that is probably the best schedule I’ve personally seen.
Mary (48:27.266)
Yeah, I love it. And it is hard, know, as somebody that works remotely, my office is right across the hall from my bedroom. And so it’s easy for me if I get something like an email or, you know, a message or just a piece of work, it’s easier for me to just pop in there. And, you know, it’s hard to shut it off. So I love the work life integration where it’s like, it’s okay to take a break and do what you need to do. Go pick up your kids.
throw on a load of laundry, go to the gym, live your life, and then get your work done on your own on your own time frame. I love that and that’s such a great approach. So what’s one key takeaway that you want our listeners to
April Little (49:03.649)
I
April Little (49:12.201)
So I want you to think that you are driving your career, it’s not happening to you. And that there will be situations where you will not be able to grow at your organization, but you can always use it as an opportunity to grow. You might even have a bad boss.
there’s still an opportunity for you to learn what not to do from that bad boss. So I really want you to walk away feeling empowered that if you want to grow your career, it is possible for you and that it’s often the smartest people out in the room is you. It’s often the individual contributor. It’s not necessarily the executives. So if you are wanting to grow your career, that is something that’s available to you and it’s not just available for the select few.