Navigating the job recruitment landscape between public and private sectors can be a daunting task, but our latest episode of Recruiting Insider is here to help. This thought-provoking conversation explores the motivations driving job seekers from the private sector to the public sector, highlighting the compelling reasons behind this shift—from job stability to the allure of meaningful work. Understanding these factors is essential for anyone considering a career transition.
Our guest, Dustin Little, is an expert in public sector recruitment, and his insights are invaluable. He discusses the distinct hiring processes that differentiate public sector roles from their private counterparts. A key theme of our conversation is the critical role of confidence and communication skills during interviews. Dustin emphasizes how these soft skills can significantly impact candidate evaluations, along with the biases that often affect hiring decisions. By shedding light on these issues, we aim to foster a more equitable recruitment landscape.
The challenges faced by public sector recruiters are unique, including rigid salary structures and the need for greater transparency. Dustin shares his perspective on these hurdles, highlighting ongoing efforts to improve recruitment practices and make them more accessible for qualified candidates. This understanding is vital for both recruiters looking to refine their strategies and job seekers eager to enter the public sector.
For those contemplating a move into this field, Dustin offers practical advice that can streamline the application process. He underscores the importance of following application instructions closely and aligning qualifications with job requirements. These details can make a significant difference in a candidate’s success. Additionally, he suggests that considering temporary positions can serve as a strategic entry point, providing valuable experience and a pathway to permanent roles.
This episode is a treasure trove of insights for both job seekers and recruiters. By demystifying the public sector hiring process, we aim to enhance understanding of its unique challenges and opportunities. Whether you’re looking to advance your career or improve your recruitment strategies, this discussion is designed to reshape your approach to career advancement.
So, if you’re ready to unlock the secrets of successful recruitment and career transitions, tune in to this enlightening episode of Recruiting Insider. Your next career move could be just a listen away!
Watch and listen here. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review!! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐
Transcript:
Mary (00:00.752)
All right, guys, I’ve got a very special guest on today. He brings 32 years of recruiting experience and offers a very unique perspective because he’s part of a very limited group of executive recruiters that have transitioned from the private sector to the public sector. I’ve spoken with a lot of job seekers lately who…
are trying to break into the public sector, honestly, because they see more stable opportunities there, better retirement, insurance, work -life balance, growth opportunities, and sometimes even more meaningful work on that side. In fact, I’ve even heard that government positions are permanent appointments once a probationary period has been met. So after this period has passed, an employee…
is unlikely to be laid off, which is also very appealing to a lot of people in the private sector right now. On the flip side, the private sector employment allows really great fluidity if moving from one job to another, right? So it’s easier to quickly move up within a company. And in many cases, pay raises can even become quicker, right? Because there are less hoops to jump through, but dang, it’s competitive. And sometimes it’s really, really demanding too.
So Dustin Little is here to discuss the similarities and differences between the public and the private sectors, both from a recruiting perspective and from a job seeking perspective. Dustin, welcome to Recruiting Insider.
Dustin Little (01:35.747)
wonderful to be here.
Mary (01:37.776)
Dustin currently leads a specialized section within corporate HR at the city of Austin, where he guides executive recruitment, large scale recruiting initiatives, systems and processes, compliance and quality, and a whole lot more. So I want to dive in from a job seekers perspective. So Dustin, from your experience, what are the top three reasons that job seekers might consider transitioning from private to public sector work?
Dustin Little (02:06.211)
Well, I think you mentioned some. I believe that stability is a pretty big draw, frankly. I think that cities tend to swing slowly while organizations that are private may have a bad quarter. New leadership walks in and decides that a new direction has to be taken so complete sections of the business can go away.
Usually in the public sector you see the iceberg far, far away and it just doesn’t hit you during the night kind of thing. So I think that appeals to people. I also think that the government sector has come a long way in the last decade or two as they’ve tried to adopt some of the efficiencies that the private sector has and investing in infrastructure and technology and…
Mary (02:40.512)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (03:01.603)
Frankly, I think because you get more and more private sector people who sort of migrate in, it’s almost a foregone conclusion that they’re gonna start to change things from the inside out. That’s what I’m doing, or trying to do. That’s what I’ve seen other people that I’ve come across who tell me like, hey, I used to be in the private sector and here I am. So I think it has an amazing draw, especially now. I think that the newer generations,
Mary (03:16.432)
Yeah?
Dustin Little (03:30.851)
especially Gen Z, are becoming more mission -centric. They want to make a difference. They want some viable participation in their community. And beyond the nonprofit world, I don’t think there’s anything better, especially in local government, than public sector work.
Mary (03:50.768)
So you mentioned that you’re really taking advantage of the ability to drive change in the space. Can you talk to us a little bit more about that and what you’re doing?
Dustin Little (03:58.979)
You know, I don’t want to oversell that because, you know, the one thing that the public sector is really good at is that once they get something figured out, they stick to it. And so it’s change is hard. It’s distracting. It can it can weigh on some people’s minds. So sometimes they’ll say, you know what? This is working. This sequence of process steps is fine. It’s been vetted. We’ve.
We’ve done it for a long time and it works fine. And so sometimes adjusting that or what I find really interesting is, which is very different than the private sector, is that someone will write a memo like eight years ago. And it’s like the gospel. It’s like, did you see this memo? It was written by a person that’s been gone from the organization for five years. And you’re just like, yeah, I can see it. But it was.
a memo. It was vetted and it went out and everyone saw it and everyone signed off on it. That’s the rule. And it just makes me laugh sometimes because, you know, it’s just a memo. But in the public sector, it’s a big deal that something like that went out and it is the rule. And so that’s one thing that you kind of fight against when you come in. You’re like, guys, have you tried to do this or that? And then you’ll get some resistance because people are comfortable with the status quo.
Mary (04:58.0)
Yeah, cheese.
Mary (05:09.872)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary (05:25.84)
Yeah, and I can see that being both a good thing and a bad thing, right? Because it’s good in that it’s like, you know, don’t break what’s not… Don’t try to, or I should say don’t fix what’s not broken, right? But on the other hand, you know, if there are different ways of doing things, you know, even if a memo was written eight years ago or 20 years ago, you know, it’s sometimes it’s hard when somebody’s set in their ways to really change their mind, even if there is a better way of doing things. Have you found that to be the case?
Dustin Little (05:37.219)
it takes with
Dustin Little (05:56.099)
I have, and a better way is subjective. Sometimes you’ll say, this is a better way because you’ve seen it work, and other people will be like, well, I disagree. And so that’s the part that’s a little different. I mean, the private sector can be much more nimble, less, I mean, I don’t wanna undersell collaboration, because collaboration is very important, but the concept of group think,
or overthinking something to the point where you basically kill what was special about it. That happens sometimes. I’ve seen that where something will be taken and it’ll go through a wordsmithing process where 10 other people kind of got into it and started changing something, changing something, and then when it coughs out the other end, the approved version of it is so watered down and so milk toast, you’re just like, why did we even go through that exercise? We could have just started with that kind of thing.
Mary (06:53.456)
I’ve heard a lot of people in the public sector kind of say that the benefits and the incentives are just killer. They’re awesome. And so, you know, and with this unstable economy too, I also loved what you said about the iceberg idea where it’s like, if something’s going bad, you know, months or potentially even years in advance that things are going down. So it’s a lot easier to plan.
Dustin Little (07:03.587)
they are.
Dustin Little (07:14.531)
you do.
Mary (07:21.712)
So I do love that. But also, I mean, in terms of the benefits and the incentives for individuals or job seekers that are considering transitioning into the public sector, could you talk to us a little bit about those?
Dustin Little (07:33.475)
You know, and I think the private sector’s come a long way. They, you know, I came from a larger corporation that did pretty well in that area, but the public sector does invest very heavily in that. The nature of their workforce, the demographics, all of it sort of aligns to the expectation that that’s gonna be the best available. And so medical, dental, legal, I mean, what,
The list is so long that I actually have to go back and look at it sometimes to remember what I have. It’s like, I have, I can get a bus pass and ride the buses for free or you can do this or whatever. They thought about everything they can to sort of create a total compensation structure or philosophy. So that’s the difference I think you’ll see is that on the salary side,
Mary (08:06.8)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (08:27.491)
The salary may not be able to go apples to apples with the private sector. The private sector has pay for performance, it has bonuses, it has other things that the taxpayers would never put up with, right? Stock options and long -term incentives and all that. And sometimes the salaries can be quite a bit lower than your peers out in the private sector, but the reality is is that the stability, the total comp approach,
you can start gaining into a number that’s pretty evenly matched if you look at all in. And also what you mentioned earlier, work -life balance, less toxic city, the toxic nature of the private sector, which is very cutthroat sometimes. You’re not necessarily in a sleep with one eye open culture in the public sector. And so that’s, what’s the value of that?
Mary (09:21.296)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (09:27.171)
That to me is very valuable.
Mary (09:27.44)
Yeah, a lot. Yeah. Yeah, and speaking of that, I mean, are there any cultural or organizational or operational differences between the two?
Dustin Little (09:36.515)
There are. The concept of retirement. I was just having a conversation with someone yesterday about metrics and in the private sector like where I worked before, we studied, they called it attrition but it wasn’t, it was turnover. But in the public sector, you actually have attrition. You have people who are leaving the workforce, they retire. It’s in their interest to stay so because it offers,
a pension and the pension is a very positive, you know, you’re vested after five years and 10 years. I mean, you literally you have lifelong, you know, financial help, which is something the private sector just doesn’t offer. So you’ll have a lot of people who are sort of been around. So, you know, my boss has been with the organization for 30 years. You know, the other person I know 20 years and.
that’s very different than the private sector where the change is much more constant. So that’s a really big difference because you have people who really have been around for quite some time. One of my staff actually, about three months ago, retired. She’d been with the organization for 52 years. I mean, imagine that. Just every day, just getting the work done for 50 years, you’re just like, wow. And she was…
Mary (10:53.712)
Jeez. Wow. You don’t hear that very often anymore. Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (11:04.515)
like tempted to because we have some retirees come back and work part -time and I was halfway thinking that she’s going to call us in the next couple months and be like okay I’m bored I want to come back kind of thing.
Mary (11:08.656)
Yeah.
Do you think that people start to feel almost, I don’t know if I want to say pigeonholed, into staying in a public sector job because of those retirement benefits? They’re scared to leave?
Dustin Little (11:29.827)
Yeah, I do. And that’s unfortunate because instead of feeling empowered, like I’ve been with, say I’ve been with the organization for a long period of time and I’m a few years away from retirement, intuitively you should feel like, you know what, I got this, I’ve been doing it, I got it down, I know every one, I know how to do this work. But what I found is a lot of them start to kind of,
put their head down, they don’t want to upset any Alpacaarts, they don’t want to make any enemies of anyone with any authority. And so it sort of becomes the opposite of innovation. It becomes sort of the absence of presence. They’re just like three more years, five days and two days and I’m out of here kind of thing.
Mary (12:12.944)
Yeah.
Mary (12:18.224)
Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.
Dustin Little (12:21.923)
And if you’re trying to shake things up, like if you’re coming in from the outside and you have a fresh pair of eyes and you’re like, hey guys, let’s do this kind of thing, you’ll get some folks who are just like, shh, just don’t, just don’t, don’t draw any energy towards us, we’re fine kind of thing. And that to me is an unfortunate reality. I feel like if I was that close, I would be taking more chances.
Mary (12:29.808)
Yeah.
Mary (12:34.0)
No, I have five years left, man.
Dustin Little (12:49.923)
I would be saying, you know what, I’ve always wanted to do this, we should do that, or trying to explore new horizons. So when I left, it wasn’t stale, it was where it needs to be, but that’s not how it really works.
Mary (13:04.432)
Yeah. And I should say that I’ve seen that happen in the private sector as well. Somebody that’s been in a position for a very long time, they get comfortable. Innovation goes away and they’re like, you know what? I have like two years left, five years left until requirement, until retirement. I’m just going to chill here and, you know, not go for anything else and try to pursue something different.
Dustin Little (13:14.179)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (13:27.459)
You know, but my experience is that that’s in the private sector, you become too expensive. And if you’re not really contributing, they’ll take you out. I mean, I’ve seen a lot of senior executives who fell into that trap of becoming no one can touch me, I’m whatever. But the private sector, unlike the public sector, like, you know, we’re, city of Austin is an MCS city, so we have municipal civil service. So.
Mary (13:36.08)
Mm, for sure. Yeah.
Dustin Little (13:56.643)
Earlier you mentioned permanence. I wouldn’t use that word because I don’t think that really exists outside of maybe having tenure as a professor or something like that. But how does the union describe it? They say something to the effect of you have some sort of property rights to your job. I’m not sure if that’s the best way to describe it, but it is much more difficult to terminate someone.
Mary (13:58.96)
Mm, yeah.
Dustin Little (14:26.179)
just arbitrarily. I mean, you really have to have a reason. And even then, if that goes through, because there’s a commission, you may be able to go to the commission and say, I think this didn’t happen the way it should have, and they can reinstate you to your job. That type of almost third party power doesn’t exist in the private sector. I mean, you could go to the EEOC, or you could file some sort of formal complaint with the government, or you could even sue them and settle.
Mary (14:27.696)
Mm. Yeah.
Mary (14:43.888)
Mm.
Mary (14:49.072)
No way, yeah.
Dustin Little (14:55.779)
but it’s very rare for you to get someone who says, nope, you should go back to your old job, we’ll give your money back, and we’ll kick the person that took your job out, which is, wow.
Mary (15:05.776)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s would be unheard of in the private sector.
Dustin Little (15:12.099)
yeah.
Mary (15:13.84)
How does the public sector process, let me start that over, from a recruiter’s perspective, how does the public sector hiring process typically differ from the private sector?
Dustin Little (15:27.523)
That’s a great question because it is, they’re similar but very different. Especially City of Austin. City of Austin really does everything it can to create a very fair, unbiased, really the actions they’ve taken in the hiring process are bar none, probably the fairest I’ve ever seen. Now,
There’s pros like panel interviews, for example, which is a big part of the culture, which do reduce bias. You don’t get a lot of that good old boy network stuff or I’m hiring you because you’re a friend of my wife’s, that kind of thing. And that type of independent hiring or what in the public sector you would call direct appointment, it’s very rare. I mean, it really is unusual and when it happens, it’s usually a person that’s.
doing the job on an interim basis or has been there for 10 years and really knows their stuff and it was very well thought out before it occurred. I think that the way the jobs are marketed, like that’s one of the things that I’m trying to help the team with is the employer brand element. The things that are sort of in the reputation of the public sector, whether it’s stability or the things I mentioned about the culture.
you know being a very fair and inclusive culture you know you have to package that and you gotta sell it and that’s the part i think that’s missing is the salesmanship for lack of a better word that i think there’s tons of potential because there’s a lot there to sell but selling is not the way the government thinks you know they’re not the the process especially like the
Mary (16:54.232)
Yeah.
Mary (16:59.888)
Mm.
Mary (17:11.344)
Mm.
Dustin Little (17:18.307)
the interview process can feel a little adversarial. A panel interview is the most intimidating of all the interview structure types, right? I mean, it really is. I joke with whenever I’m guiding an interview panel, I joke that it’s much like a jury. The way it feels, the structure you have sort of at the end, the consensus thing, and then we’re like convict or not convict kind of thing, or hire or not hire.
Mary (17:27.376)
Yeah, yes.
Mary (17:35.44)
Yeah.
Mary (17:45.36)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (17:47.619)
And it feels that way to the candidate. The candidate walks in and not everyone is wired to deal with that type of pressure. I mean, interviews are tough anyway. I mean, it’s a very artificial thing to walk into a situation and you’re Sunday best and sell yourself. Some people are just like, look, I’m a really great accountant, but I’m not very good at selling myself. And so to me, the interview process is it needs a little love, the way we brand ourselves.
Mary (18:04.304)
Yes, so intimidating.
Dustin Little (18:17.859)
needs a little love the way we talk about the jobs. There’s not a lot of testimonials or a lot of insights or none of that’s really discussed, it’s just sort of assumed. So that’s different than the private sector. The private sector tends to try pretty hard to razzle dazzle and get you through. While the public sector is pretty much like, look, if you can hang in through this process and you do everything you’re supposed to, you just may make it.
Mary (18:35.76)
Yeah.
Mary (18:43.92)
It’s yours!
Dustin Little (18:47.715)
that kind of thing
Mary (18:50.0)
So what are you doing specifically, Dustin, to make waves in that recruiting process?
Dustin Little (18:54.595)
my God, little baby waves. I came in with big waves and that was like no. And so the things that I’m trying to do are, one thing is like we have all these processes and guidelines and memos and these rules and some of them I think are sort of misunderstood. Are they’re referenced?
Mary (18:58.512)
Yeah, ripples.
Dustin Little (19:24.355)
Well, we can’t do that because of this. And then you go read that and it doesn’t say that at all. It’s norms or habits or traditions or someone decided to do a certain thing. I’ll give you an example like in our MCS level interviews. Someone must have done something during an interview because they have some guidelines. They say, hey, try not to smile or to laugh during an interview. You know.
Clearly that came from some person doing something in an interview and it upset the interview somehow so they had to make a rule that says, I agree not to have too good of a time during this interview. And you know, it’s that kind of stuff. But then when people talk about it, they talk about it like, well this is MCS rules. No it’s not, it’s someone did something over the line and someone had to create a rule that said, hey,
Mary (20:00.944)
Sure.
Mary (20:06.588)
I will keep it adversarial.
Dustin Little (20:23.683)
don’t do that and next thing you know it turns into a thing. Stuff like that I’ve been trying to go back and really understand where everything came from, clarify the rules the best I can. Like there’s another example is this, everything is sort of trying to be quantified, right? So everything’s weighted, there’s matrices and decision rubrics and.
all kinds of things to kind of get to the hiring decision or to decision to extend an offer. Tons of waiting has been put on the interview. It’s almost like if you don’t interview well, nothing else matters. And that’s one of the things I’m trying to just remind the team, like guys, look at the rules. It’s the balance of a bunch of things in the aggregate at the discretion of the hiring authority because you can…
and you know this as someone who’s close to these processes, you can have people who interview very, very well, but are not great for the job or for the team. And so leveraging assessments and professional references and sometimes just using your experience as an interviewer and having a one -on -one and feeling someone out. Are their soft skills strong or do they…
someone is gonna align to the group, do they fit into my long -term plans, all of that needs to be included in a hiring decision. But today, there’s like, if they interview well, they win. And I’m working on stuff like that, just trying to remind the team, like guys, that’s not what the rules say. The rules give you the option to create a more holistic process. Take advantage of that, because it’s in your interest to be well -informed.
Mary (21:54.576)
Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (22:15.779)
the most well informed you can be and seven questions in an interview or their responses is not enough to give you what you need to make a hiring decision in my opinion. So anyway, that’s one of the things I’m trying to drive.
Mary (22:29.488)
Yeah. And I mean, and like you said, there, there are people out there and myself included that sometimes go in incredibly nervous and absolutely bomb the interview. So just having seven interview questions where, you know, I have these seven interview questions planned out and they’re not trying to dig a little bit deeper. You may pass up on a candidate that could be a really, really great fit for that position and that team because.
Dustin Little (22:41.571)
Mm.
Mary (22:58.032)
You only asked those seven questions and you didn’t go deeper to really figure out who they are and, you know, go beneath the layers a little bit.
Dustin Little (23:07.107)
Well, and there’s another reality to panel interviewing that’s very interesting. So one of the things that we’re hoping to do, and it’s the right thing to do, is to have a diverse panel. And a panel interview in its nature is really kind of a cool cross -functional project. It’s a little mini project. Like you bring in department heads from different groups and functional leads, and you bring them all into one space, and they collaborate for a day.
And some of them don’t know each other. They all meet and talk and they work on this little project together to get to some sort of outcome. Well, the reality is that most scoring when you get into panel interviewing is equal. So say I’m, and I’ll give you real examples, because it’s interesting. Like say it’s like with our energy utility, like Austin Energy, and I’m going through a process with someone on some very,
technical role power generation or something like that. And I’m scoring, and I’m an HR person and I’m scoring on the panel. Well, there are things that I don’t understand about that job. What I know is what I know very well, but what I don’t know, I don’t even know I don’t know. So I was literally in an interview not too long ago where at the end of it, we were going through the scoring and someone scored someone very well and…
Mary (24:24.304)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (24:34.019)
the rest of the team was like, how did that happen? Well, the person spoke with confidence, they seemed to know what they were talking about, but in the responses was things that were not accurate or not timely or not appropriate. And the other people knew that. They were like, yeah, he didn’t know what he was talking about, but the HR person was like, well, he certainly sounded like he knew what he was talking about. So you can get a skew in the scoring sometimes.
Mary (24:49.008)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mary (24:58.672)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (25:03.523)
because someone just likes someone. Like, how, that’s the kind of person I could break bread with or whatever. And they’ll score really high and they can skew the entire score. And so that’s another thing I’m trying to help even out is that there are things that you can do to help that process or alleviate those kind of issues, but also don’t put too much weight on that because you have a diverse group, you have people who may not know the job very well.
Mary (25:09.684)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (25:33.859)
Use what they give you, but then use your own expertise to make the hiring decision based on they gave you input, but you don’t have to use their input as the gospel. It’s just a data point. Anyway.
Mary (25:46.736)
Yeah.
Mary (25:51.824)
So what are some of the biggest challenges that recruiters face when filling these public sector positions?
Dustin Little (26:00.675)
Well, what I mentioned earlier, the short -term thought process when people see, for example, a salary and a salary is $10 ,000 higher, the private sector can do that on a whim. They can just shift, like, hey, we need to pay more. Okay, Fred, approve it, done kind of thing. The public sector, it’s very well thought out.
you know, there’s analysis, there’s evaluation, they look at other cities and other municipalities and they study it, then they make a call about things like compensation. So there’s not a quick sort of in the moment, hey, that’s a really great candidate, I think we can beat the other offer kind of thing, that just doesn’t really exist. So that’s a challenge because you can’t be nimble. And on the other hand, you also have to be, in most cases, extremely transparent. So…
you’re showing all your cards from day one like this is what it pays and i think the average candidate looks at that and goes that’s a starting point they think once they meet me and they love me they’ll move that number to get me kind of thing and that’s a limitation the public sector just can’t overcome because we are being transparent we’re sharing with you exactly what we can do and
Mary (27:04.752)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (27:25.187)
Most candidates are not wired that way. They really do are hopeful and optimistic that, you know what, I could get more out of these people. All they have to do is just hear my story. And so that’s a disadvantage.
Mary (27:40.56)
Are there any skills or experiences that the hiring committee might look for in a candidate, whether in the public sector or the private sector?
Dustin Little (28:00.963)
That’s a big question. Give me a little more, boil it down just a little bit for me because it’s a very big thing. So you mean like fundamentals of communication capabilities? I mean there’s a lot there.
Mary (28:12.208)
Yeah, so specifically, yeah, I’ll reframe that. For any of our listeners that are trying to break into the public sector, and I’ve worked with a lot of people who are like, man, I just, I want that stability right now. I want that retirement. I don’t care if I have to take a pay cut. What advice would you give them to stand out during the recruiting process?
Dustin Little (28:40.579)
Well, some of it’s very simple, which is do exactly what you’re told. So if they, if, you know, like in our process, for example, we ask each person to completely fill out an application, and you’ll see so many people who just lazy, we’ll say, see resume, right? Just look somewhere else. They’re not following the process as described.
Mary (29:02.256)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (29:08.803)
please provide professional relevant references, provide them. If a cover letter is requested, which is a little old school, but it’s still in this environment, it’s referenced. So when someone goes through process, all the materials that are provided are studied ad nauseum and could make a difference. So think about them, customize them to the opportunity, don’t just boulder plate, pop something from AI or whatever.
Write it out in your voice from you and be real. Complete everything. Make sure that you’re applying to something that aligns. Because some people will project themselves into a job like, I could do that. And they don’t realize they’re going to be competing against 20 other people who really are doing it, five of which have been doing it in the organization.
Mary (29:59.12)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (30:04.739)
And so I, you know, recently I did a search for a functional leader and this person hit me up on LinkedIn and was just like, you know, they did something completely different. They were like in the rental car business or something and they were like, I can’t wait to hear from you. You know, I know that this job would be perfect for me and I’m looking at their background, I’m looking at the job, I’m like, what are you talking about? But they completely, they saw themselves on the job.
Mary (30:29.488)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (30:34.403)
And I kept looking at their background going, this person actually could apply for this other job in a department that’s an operational job because they would align, but that’s not what they want to do. They want to do this other thing so they can be a whatever. And so sometimes just applying for something where it makes sense is half the battle because some people will just project and they’ll be like, I could do that. That’s not how it works. So completing everything that’s asked.
Mary (30:57.616)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (31:03.555)
following and taking the process extremely seriously. Personal, where you can, there’s not a lot of personal interaction in these processes, so when you get an opportunity, be yourself, be genuine, be authentic. I think if you do that and you line things up, you’ve got a real shot. But the one thing about the public sector, it’s a little bit different than the private sector, is that if something doesn’t work, like you’re not selected for one job,
really apply for another one. It’s not like there’s a memory like, we’re not gonna hire that person because he applied here. There’s not that much connection between the recruiters saying, watch out for Phil. Phil applies to everything. Just do your best to line up where you can and keep trying. And you never know, you will get a shot. The last thing I would say is there are jobs that happen in…
Mary (31:47.92)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (32:01.731)
public sector that are considered temporary. In other words, you’re not getting all those wonderful things that an FTE would get, you know, but you’re in the door and the process is a little simpler. Many people take that route. I think we have, I don’t know, two or three thousand people are in that category within the 16 or 17 ,000 employees that we have in Austin and that is a viable route into the organization.
And also, I think the last thing I would say, like in my case, for example, I went down, I was an executive and I went down to a supervisor level, you know, and everything that that meant, financially, responsibility, my organization in my previous is bigger than all of HRT here. I did that because I look at my career as a chess board instead of a checkers board. And I needed to be in the room to do the work and create relationships and…
Mary (32:36.688)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (32:46.224)
Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (32:59.651)
show my value and if I choose at some point to pursue something that’s more senior, if that makes sense for me, then I’ll do so. But I knew that I wasn’t gonna get in by trying to say, you know what, I’m an executive, I only accept executive roles, I’m gonna do that because I didn’t line up to the executive roles in the public sector because I was doing something a little bit different. So I think that that’s another thing is that sometimes people will have to be a little…
Mary (33:10.48)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (33:21.392)
Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (33:28.259)
They’ll have to show some humility and they’ll have to be able to play a little bit of chess. They get in, prove their value, and then at some point in the future there may be another opportunity for them to move up or over.
Mary (33:39.824)
Yeah, I love that. Drop your ego. And I made a post on LinkedIn about that recently where there are a ton of contract positions available, whether in the private sector or in the public sector. So if you’re trying to get your foot in the door, that’s such a good way to get in, to establish yourself, to learn the tech, to learn the processes, to start networking, get your foot in the door that way. And then like Dustin said,
And then different opportunities will come up. And when you apply to one of those FTE positions with the, you know, full -time benefits, everything, you’re going to be way more likely to have your foot in the door and, you know, be able to go through the interview process and get that job offer. Yeah.
Dustin Little (34:22.211)
I agree, I do. I think that that’s a, people, I think people miss that. Now the reality is, is if they’re unemployed, you know, they’re just seeking employment, obviously that makes total sense. Like, of course, but if you’re employed somewhere and you’re shifting from a position that does have benefits and all of that and you’re trying to break in, I think that’s where it becomes difficult because it feels like a step backwards and down, and it could be.
But again, you have to keep your eye on the goal. If your goal is to do that, you have to figure out how to maneuver to be in that position of strength. Now, I will tell you something about the private sector that’s very, I think very real. Is that because progression, when I mentioned earlier that people retire, right? They hang in there. They’re in their jobs for a long period of time.
You may not find a lot of up and down the chain movement because there’s someone there. Like that job is there. And they’re not waiting for their boss to die or whatever. It’s basically like they’re there and they may be in that role for 10 years. So inside the organization, there’s a lot of this kind of movement. Like people will move to other departments or move here so they can financially move forward, which means…
Mary (35:30.928)
Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (35:52.611)
if you’re applying to a role with something like the city, you’re gonna be competing against people internally who are highly motivated to get into that role because it advances them financially and responsibility. And so as an external person, like this is something I see a lot, the private sector folks, I had a good friend actually that we used to work with at Orion that sent me a LinkedIn, sent me a note, he goes, hey, I interviewed today at the city and I killed it.
And I was like, okay, you know, don’t get over your skis, man. He didn’t get the job. He wasn’t even in the top, you know, five. I mean, he really, but he thought he nailed it. What he didn’t realize is that there were four other people in that process that were from other departments that really wanted that particular role. And he was at a disadvantage because those people were, one, taking it very seriously. And those responses and those interviews were probably right on point.
Mary (36:22.0)
man. Yeah.
Mary (36:39.216)
Mm.
Dustin Little (36:51.651)
And how do you compete with that? It’s very, very difficult. Honestly, even though I took a lot of hits to get into this role, I consider myself extremely lucky. I was very fortunate. And I don’t know if I can pull it off again, frankly, knowing what I know now. I’m just lucky as can be.
Mary (37:09.392)
Hehehehehe
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great example of why you shouldn’t take a rejection in the hiring process personally, because you don’t know anything about those other candidates or the decision making process that’s going on behind the scenes. If you’re going up against four internal candidates that have all of the qualifications and they’re nailing the interview, it’s like, man, that’s just, that’s, that’s brutal. I feel for your friend. And I,
Dustin Little (37:42.691)
Yeah, that was a tough day for him. I thought so right after. I was like, that’s rough.
Mary (37:45.776)
Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to also touch on what you said, Dustin, about the importance of just making sure that all of your application materials align with exactly what they’re looking for. And that’s something that I found too, just through, you know, resume writing and, you know, job searching in that, in that way, specifically within the public sector is it’s
a very, very, very picky process. They want to see exactly how your skills align with exactly what they’re looking for. And I think, you know, in the private sector, it seems like there’s a little more flexibility with that, where you don’t have to show every single, you know, skill that they’re looking for. You may be able to qualify for or have, you know, maybe 60 % of the qualifications that they’re looking for. But in the public sector, like, like Dustin said, you make sure that.
your application materials, your resume, your cover letter, if that’s a part of it, everything matches exactly what they’re asking for.
Dustin Little (38:52.707)
Well, and again, it’s a little bit old school, but I also believe when materials and resources are accessible to be reviewed, right, and they’re allowed, letters of recommendation, samples of work product, awards and recognitions, you know, in the public sector, you may be acknowledged or you may win some, you know, City Engineer of the Year or wherever you’re working kind of thing. All of it builds…
Mary (39:05.708)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (39:21.955)
a case and so don’t ignore that i mean try to win the job try to win the interview try to win that you know the the offer i mean it’s you you have to pursue each step aggressively and that respecting the process into everything you can and then you know after all that hard work you may get a real shot at it but some people for what and i think part of this is i want to blame you know indeed a little bit and some of these big monsters
You know, you start making the application process so easy. Easy apply, easy apply. You know, people are just like, I’ll take it, I’ll take it, I’ll take it. You might as well just say like, hey, AI, just apply to every job that has this thing and it’s in this area for me. You know, that’s how much thought seems to be given sometimes. The application process is a serious thing and take it very seriously. Only apply to jobs that you really want and if you do that,
Mary (39:56.88)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, don’t do that. Don’t do that.
Dustin Little (40:21.827)
you have a better shot of being taken seriously, I think.
Mary (40:24.656)
Yeah. I mean, the public sector or sorry, the private sector right now, many companies are receiving thousands of applicants for every single position. How many applicants are you seeing in the public sector for any position?
Dustin Little (40:37.091)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (40:41.475)
You know, it depends. For executive, for example, it depends on the function. So if it’s, we’ve had two recently where we got a lot of applicant flow, like a deputy CIO job that we were working on, which is information technology that seemed to really have a lot of applicant flow, because you got a lot of people in the private sector and other places that see themselves, they’re technically very strong and they’re like, I could do that, right.
Economic development, we have two economic development jobs open right now at the executive level and they got a ton of applicant flow because they’re so sexy. Cultural arts and workforce development, it’s very cool. Some jobs are extremely specific, like we have a deputy OCMO, which is a medical director. It requires a board accreditation in emergency medicine and a sub accreditation in emergency, you know,
Mary (41:21.648)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (41:41.826)
management systems, that’s like a, I don’t know, like a needle in a haystack inside of a bunch of haystacks. I mean, it’s crazy specific. And we only have six applicants. So sometimes you’ll have some that are very, very specific. You know, someone who knows about water utility or has, I’ll give you some examples like capital delivery. Right now we have a very interesting job that is managing a billion dollars worth of projects.
and they’re looking for someone who has that type of background and you’re like, how many people have that background, who manage that much capital improvement at one time? And so you get into sort of this very small groups that could actually qualify for it. But in terms of what, I see the same thing like a LinkedIn, like 900 people applied today and that’s what I was talking about, it’s too easy to apply, right? Then it becomes just sort of this white noise.
Mary (42:10.896)
Sheesh.
Mary (42:17.84)
Yeah, wow.
Dustin Little (42:38.851)
I would say that we get our fair share, but it’s not as big as some of those numbers that you see there. I mean, that’s extraordinary. Probably because we have to do all the application stuff. Once you get on the page, you’re like, man, this is gonna take a minute. Then they’re like, I’m out, I’m just gonna go back to doing what I was doing. That could be part of it, but honestly, I kinda like that because if you’re really serious about pursuing the job, then you’ll go through the process. If you’re not really into it,
Mary (42:41.776)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (42:47.888)
Okay.
Yeah, right. that’s a lot of work, man.
Dustin Little (43:08.355)
If there’s no motivating thing that says, you know what, I gotta sit down and take this seriously, then maybe it’s just not for you.
Mary (43:15.024)
Yeah, yeah. So Dustin, what are the top three takeaways from our conversation today?
Dustin Little (43:22.339)
Top three takeaways. I think that the public sector is a wonderful place to explore if you’re looking at future job opportunities. I think that there’s a lot there that is good for you. Great work, good people, meaningful work. I’ll tell you a funny story. I was, I remember just a few years ago,
watching the news and in austin and they’re like a p d a six hundred people down and you know they’re talking about that they need officers and i had a friend of a friend who knew the the previous mayor and i i literally was like gotta call my buddy and say hey tell these guys to call me maybe i can help them out you know it is a t a guy and now i’m here and somebody apartment but but i’m here and so when
Mary (44:14.256)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Dustin Little (44:19.107)
I was actually trying to, in my mind I was like, what can I do to help them? How can I help my community? Because I think that that’s important that that element gets solved so we can be safer and all those things can happen. But just that kind of motivation, if it comes from inside you, like, you know what? I have skills, I can do this, I can do that. I would love to apply those skills in my blood, sweat, and tears to help my…
my town or the people that I know. And what’s funny now is I see City of Austin everywhere. They pick up the trash, the water guy was out front, they’re fixing a thing. TPW was outside fixing one of those little things for the bicycle thing. And I was just like, I see them everywhere I look now. And I thought, man, I didn’t realize that City of Austin was so in my ecosystem, but now I see it.
Mary (44:55.216)
Yeah.
Mary (45:01.104)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (45:12.432)
Yeah.
Dustin Little (45:14.147)
but now I’m part of it so I get to look over and be like, hey, I bet you that guy works for so and so that I know, kind of thing.
Mary (45:19.888)
That’s really cool. Well, Dustin, where can we find you on social media?
Dustin Little (45:24.931)
You know, I’m on LinkedIn. I am barely on whatever Musk calls that thing, platform. Instagram, I’m creeping around a little bit, a little bit of Facebook. I’m less and less engaged in some of those platforms because they just sort of turn into big, you know, they just want my money, you know. But, and they’re very creative about getting it. You know, once you’re in there, they start this.
Mary (45:47.536)
Mm -hmm, yeah.
Mary (45:52.176)
yeah, yeah.
Dustin Little (45:54.563)
Sometimes I wonder if they’re psychic though. Yesterday I was just thinking about something and it popped on the screen. I was like, okay, that’s weird.
Mary (46:01.295)
That’s happened to me before too, that’s crazy. It’s crazy how that works.
Dustin Little (46:04.131)
Yeah, I think we’re all foregone. I think once we’re studied enough, we’re kind of foregone conclusions. But that’s right. LinkedIn is kind of where I hang my hat. That’s the one I take the most serious. The others are just kind of for fun every once in a while. And I’m starting to lose interest in Facebook, for example. Slowly but surely. If it wasn’t for some old friends that I sort of see on occasion, I probably would have abandoned it, you know, two years ago. But that’s about it.
Mary (46:10.0)
It’s over.
Mary (46:31.408)
amazing Dustin, thank you so much for coming on today.
Dustin Little (46:34.307)
Thanks for having me. Good luck.