How women in leadership can build confidence and break through bias with Katy McFee

In our latest podcast episode, we tackle a topic that resonates deeply with many listeners: the unique challenges and opportunities that women face on their journey to leadership. This week, we’re joined by Katie McFee, a seasoned executive and founder of Insights to Action, a coaching and consulting firm dedicated to empowering women in the corporate world. With her extensive experience and personal insights, Katie sheds light on the often-overlooked hurdles women encounter as they strive for leadership positions.

Katie begins by sharing her personal story, illustrating the reality of navigating a predominantly male corporate landscape. Her candid recounting of the obstacles she faced, particularly on her quest for a VP role, sets the tone for a thought-provoking discussion. She highlights how unconscious bias, societal expectations, and a lack of mentorship can hinder women’s progress, making it clear that these challenges are not just individual struggles, but systemic issues that require collective awareness and action.

One of the most compelling points Katie makes is about the prevalence of unconscious bias. She explains how these biases can manifest in various ways, from being overlooked for promotions to receiving less constructive feedback compared to male counterparts. This discussion is crucial, as it encourages listeners to reflect on their own experiences and recognize the subtle forces at play in their workplaces.

Another significant roadblock Katie addresses is the lack of mentorship for women in corporate settings. She emphasizes the importance of having mentors who can provide guidance, support, and networking opportunities. However, she also notes that women often face challenges in finding these mentors, which can lead to feelings of isolation and frustration. Throughout the episode, Katie provides actionable strategies to cultivate relationships and seek out mentorship, encouraging listeners to actively pursue connections that can help propel their careers.

Mindset also plays a pivotal role in Katie’s advice. She argues that cultivating a strong and positive mindset is essential for overcoming obstacles. This includes believing in one’s own capabilities and embracing the idea of self-advocacy. Katie encourages women to voice their accomplishments and seek out opportunities, reminding us that taking charge of our narratives is a vital step toward leadership.

As the conversation progresses, we delve into practical strategies that can help women transition into leadership roles. Katie emphasizes the importance of building relationships within the organization, creating allies, and fostering a network of support. These connections can provide invaluable insights and open doors to new opportunities, making the journey to leadership less daunting.

Moreover, Katie discusses the significance of advocating for oneself. She offers practical tips on how to effectively communicate career aspirations to management, emphasizing that expressing ambition is not only acceptable but necessary. This conversation serves as a powerful reminder that women should not shy away from pursuing their goals; instead, they should be proactive in communicating their aspirations.

Whether you’re an aspiring leader or already holding a position of authority, this episode is packed with valuable insights. The challenges women face in corporate culture are complex, but with the right mindset and strategies, it is possible to navigate these complexities and thrive. Katie’s expertise and personal experiences offer a roadmap for anyone looking to break through the barriers that stand in their way.

Join us as we explore the triumphs and tribulations of women in leadership. This episode not only highlights the issues at hand but also empowers listeners with the tools they need to achieve their career goals. So, whether you’re tuning in during your commute, while working out, or just enjoying a quiet moment at home, we invite you to listen and reflect on the insights shared in this episode.

In the end, our conversation with Katie McFee serves as a rallying cry for women everywhere. It’s a call to action to recognize and confront the obstacles we face, to support one another in our journeys, and to celebrate the progress we make along the way. Together, we can create a more equitable and inclusive future for women in leadership. Tune in now and join the movement!

 

Transcript:

Mary (00:01.025)
Welcome back to the show, guys. All right, so we’re going to go deep today. Many women dream of growing and thriving in their career, leading the charge, making the big decisions, and shaping the future of the organization. Dang, I mean, I know that I dream about that all the time. And for many women, that dream can feel frustratingly out of reach. The transition into leadership is difficult. I mean, I’m talking like unconscious bias, a lack of mentorship, societal expectations. These can all create hurdles that can really hinder a woman’s rise to the top. But achieving gender parity and leadership isn’t just about fairness, right?

Studies have shown that companies with diverse leadership teams outperform those who lack it. So women really bring this unique perspective, communication styles, problem solving approaches, everything to the table. And so, in my opinion, when we have more women leading the charge, businesses become more innovative, more adaptable, and even more successful.

And so today, Katie McPhee is here to bridge the gap for us. She’s going to discuss how women can successfully transition to and thrive in leadership positions. So Katie, welcome to Recruiting Insider.

Katy McFee (01:41.07)
Thank you so much, Mary. I’m excited to be here.

Mary (01:45.021)
As the founder and CEO at Insights to Action, Coaching and Consulting, Katie works with women to break through to executive leadership and become the successful and impactful executives they want to be. Prior to this, Katie spent 18 years working in biotech and tech, holding several senior leadership positions. After becoming an executive, she saw that like her, many others struggle with the transition to leadership and there are very few resources to help. And so she left her corporate job to launch Insights to Action with the mission of helping other women make that successful leap into senior leadership and to show up as the leaders they want to be all without burning out. So Katie, I want to learn a little bit more about your journey in the corporate world. So tell me about your transition into leadership and what challenges did you face?

Katy McFee (02:46.222)
Yeah, well, that’s a great place to start because the reason I created the business that I now have is all based on my own struggles and experience in climbing the corporate ladder. I always say if I had had it really easy, if I had just taken a rocket ship to the top, I probably wouldn’t be here. I wouldn’t have learned the hard lessons I learned. So with me, early in my career, I knew that I wanted to be a VP. I wanted to be an executive. And I did progress to my first leadership position relatively easily. I was great with people, right? I was action oriented. I worked really hard. Like I had a really strong work ethic. I was always willing to put up my hand. So getting that first manager position was, you know, not too much of a stretch for me.

But what I noticed, it was one of those like, what gets you here won’t get you there type scenarios, where I kept doing the same thing. I was working really hard. I was putting up my hand for anything extra I could do. I was grinding away, and that wasn’t getting the same result. I noticed this right away at the manager level. And I kind of joked that going from manager to director,

Mary (03:47.19)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (04:10.03)
For me was like a brute force thing. I was working at it and then we ended up having a reorg. I was pushing and pushing to get this promotion. We ended up reorg -ing and I was told, okay, we’re gonna ask you to join the leadership team and be the director of sales. And that was a win, but that was where I really got stuck. So at that point in my career,

Mary (04:12.885)
Mm.

Katy McFee (04:36.27)
I wanted to be a VP. There was no VP above me. I should like be clear about that. This is not like a position that was occupied by someone else. And that’s why I couldn’t move into it. There was no VP above me. I was reporting to the CEO, but I still couldn’t get them to give me the title. And I was in that position doing this for, I want to say about five years, maybe a little bit more. This wasn’t like I was frustrated after six months. It was like a solid five years of me just like working away. And so through that, you know, like I really did struggle to try to figure out like, what do I need to do to get to the next level? Why do they not see me as a VP? You know, I’m at the leadership table, I’m leading this function, and yet I’m being told I’m not ready, I’m not there yet. It was very frustrating for someone like me, who was used to achieving in my career and was used to results being, you know, coming from the hard work that I put in pretty predictably. And now suddenly I’m like, I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked. And it’s not, it’s not working out for me. So, so that’s kind of my, those are some of my struggles in my career. Eventually I did end up landing that VP position and I did that by leaving that company, truthfully. So I did a lot of work first. So I worked with an executive coach. I just…

Mary (05:56.623)
Okay.

Katy McFee (06:03.054)
…Started to get really intentional about reflecting on what was going well, what wasn’t, why could that be? I read a lot, like I was doing all of the things. And then one day it hit me that it was never gonna happen for me at that company. I was like, they are never gonna make me a VP. So I had to ask myself, like how important is it to me to get that title? Is it important enough for me to leave this company that I love and I really believed in the mission?

Mary (06:12.783)
Hehehe

Katy McFee (06:33.166)
And after some reflection, I decided that yes, it was. Like I wanted to be at the VP level. I wanted to really be steering the ship. I wanted to be making those decisions. I wanted to be in a more strategic position. So I decided to kind of put some feelers out. Long story short, I landed my first VP position. I did really well in that role. So, you know, I came into this new company and I really like succeeded as a VP there. And then I ended up going on to be an EVP somewhere else.

And so that was really interesting for me as well. You know, I had a lot of limiting beliefs around whether I was cut out for this, but I was like, no, this is a good fit, right? Like I’m succeeding, I’m doing well. And so that was really interesting for me. But the thing I saw was that other women were really struggling. Men too, by the way, like men and women were struggling at these same spots in their career.

Mary (07:26.311)
For sure.

Katy McFee (07:28.878)
And that was kind of like when that first seed was planted, like how do I help these people?

Mary (07:36.298)
Why do you think that your original company was unwilling to give you that VP title? What was holding them back?

Katy McFee (07:45.662)
I think it was like a multitude of things, to be honest. So one, I think one of the things was that our CEO had known me since very early in my career. I worked, so I worked with him at the first company I ever worked at and then I worked at a few other places and then he ended up recruiting me to go work for him there. And I think part of it was that in his mind, I was just always that person, right? I think it was kind of hard for me to.

Mary (08:10.696)
Yeah, sure.

Katy McFee (08:12.11)
You know, really shift that perception. A lot of it, I think, did come down to perception at the end of the day. He wasn’t perceiving me as a senior leader. And perhaps, had we met under different circumstances, would he have? Maybe. I don’t know. But I definitely came down to perception. Part of it was me. So part of it was that I had great ideas, I was thinking strategically, I was not great at being intentional.

Mary (08:17.479)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (08:41.614)
About the way I packaged that stuff up, right? So I might have a great idea, but instead of spending the time, you’re like, how am I gonna frame this and really understanding how to effectively communicate my ideas to the leadership team, I would just kind of throw them out there. Part of that was just a lack of knowledge. And then part of that was I had not created new habits. I had not yet learned.

Mary (08:54.086)
Yeah.

Mary (09:02.981)
Mm.

Yeah.

Katy McFee (09:10.19)
This concept of like socializing my idea to people before I share it at a big meeting. So there was some stuff that I had to learn as well. And so I think it was really both sides of the coin. I think I had a little bit of growing to do. And I think that I was also stuck in this perception problem that I needed to sort of break out of. And I think, I guess the third thing was that

Mary (09:18.5)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (09:40.846)
Feeling stuck in this position for so long was really starting to impact my mindset, my confidence. And I think all of that was just not helping me show up as the leader I wanted to be. Right? So I wasn’t maybe bringing the same number of great ideas forward as I used to because I was like, it’s gonna get shut down. Right? So there was also some mindset stuff that I needed to work on.

Mary (09:50.179)
Mm.

Mary (10:09.813)
Yeah. I think that that’s so relatable because I’ve worked with so many clients who, you know, they’ve maybe they’ve been with the same company since they graduated or they’ve just been there for a really long time and they’ve risen through the ranks. They’ve risen through the ranks and they get to this, you know, kind of proverbial glass ceiling where they just can’t get any higher, but they know that they have so much more to give. And it’s so frustrating when you’re like,

I just can’t break through. I don’t know what to do. So I think it’s really, it’s amazing to know that there are opportunities outside of your current company. Even if you love your job, you love your company, you love what they stand for, you love the product. Sometimes you really do have to make that really difficult decision to be like, okay, it kind of is what it is. It’s time to start looking externally, start.

You know, putting a plan together, maybe hire an executive coach like Katie and start figuring out what is that next step? How can I break through to that VP position and take my seat at the table at the executive table? And I also love what you said about, you know, part of that was on you too. It wasn’t all on the company and on the leadership team. And it was, you know, just you don’t know what you don’t know. Right. So you don’t at the time you weren’t packaging up those ideas. You probably had all of these amazing ideas kind of rattling around up there and you were spit firing them out but you weren’t presenting them. Like you said you weren’t socializing them. And I think I don’t remember exactly how you worded it. Did you say socializing your ideas? Could you talk to us a little bit more about what that means?

Katy McFee (11:50.35)
Mm.

Yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things that I think earlier in my career, I was like, I don’t wanna play politics. This is BS or whatever. And I really felt that if I had a great idea, I could just bring it up and then people would just see that if it was good. I didn’t recognize the value in getting people on board for a couple of reasons. And I tell people now all the time, like, do this. It’s such a good habit to create. Especially if you’re already on a leadership team, but even if you’re not, okay? To have a couple of people, and let’s say you want to, I don’t know, suggest a new strategy for doing something, or pitch a brand new idea, or whatever the thing is. If you can run that by somebody before the big meeting. You can get feedback first on how it’s coming across. You can also see, do they have reservations or have questions in terms of how it’s going to impact them and maybe their department, right? So, you know, this was a thing where there have been instances on the leadership team where maybe I recommend, hey, I think, you know, we’re doing this. I think we need to actually move this. I think we need to start doing this, like something over here, right?

Or maybe I want to try a completely new initiative in my department. And like I said previously, I would just go to the leadership meeting and I’d be like, I’ve got something I want to bring up. And I would just present it cold. What would happen in that case? One, maybe I hadn’t hit all the right points. It’s just possible that I thought I was framing this really well. And maybe for some reason it wasn’t totally clear or it wasn’t compelling enough. But secondly,

Katy McFee (13:46.35)
Maybe people have concerns about how this impacts their group or whether it’s really the right strategy or whatever. And now I’m stuck having to answer these questions on the spot. And as soon as people start, you know, poking holes in your ideas or asking a lot of questions or challenging you, then everyone else is like, yeah, maybe this isn’t a good idea, right? Like it kind of creates the wrong sort of additional energy that you want around your idea. Whereas when I learned to start, let’s say, bringing this up to a couple of the VPs,

Mary (14:05.142)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (14:16.11)
They could tell me in this moment, okay, but wait, have you thought about this or, you know, what about this? Is there this unintended consequence we need to consider or whatever? And then I could take that feedback, maybe incorporate it into my pitch where I’m now proactively answering these questions for the whole group, but then also answer this person’s concerns and ideally get them on board. Then when you’re presenting this in a meeting, you can say, hey, I want to bring up this idea.

Mary (14:31.637)
Mm.

Mary (14:39.284)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (14:45.998)
Maybe you’ve spoken to a couple of people about it already. And maybe you’ve even said to them at the end, hey, if I bring this up in the leadership meeting, will you support me? And they’re like, yeah, now that we’ve talked through this, I will. So now you presented in the meeting and immediately a couple of people are like, yeah, no, I totally agree. We talked about this. I’m on board with this plan. So what you’re doing is you’re gaining some of that just like instant credibility with the group, right? I brought up an idea. Two people just instantly supported me.

And you’ve probably improved your pitch as well because they’ve given you feedback and you’ve incorporated that. So again, this was a big learning for me. I just need to shift my perspective around what that meant. I had to think of it as this is just a strategic move. This is a smart thing to do versus that’s playing politics.

Mary (15:19.346)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (15:41.87)
It just had to give it a different label. Like I’m being considerate. I’m bringing people into the loop. I’m being smart. I’m getting feedback. And so a lot of this stuff I find when people will come and maybe they’re bringing up challenges they’re having with their boss or with a team, like often part of it is the perspective we choose to take. So that was a big learning for me.

Mary (15:42.29)
Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Mary (16:03.6)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that you can get that buy -in from other executives on the team because they’re way more likely to come on board with you and you probably don’t even have to pivot your idea too much. You know, maybe incorporate some of the advice and the suggestions that they give and that probably also makes them feel like they somewhat contributed to your idea. And so they’re going to be way more likely to be like, Hey, yeah, that, you know, that’s

Katy McFee (16:19.63)
Mm -mm.

Mary (16:32.655)
perfect, I love that, let’s do it, I’m on board. So that’s, I would imagine, a huge learning experience for you and something that is really valuable that a lot of us, a lot of the listeners here can take away with them today. And I’m sure we have a lot of amazing listeners that are kind of ready to step up and become a leader in their field.

Katy McFee (16:47.95)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mary (17:00.271)
So they’ve got all these great skills, they’ve got the drive, like you said, but they’re kind of stuck. So where do they even begin?

Katy McFee (17:09.614)
Yeah, great question because I think often we assume it’s our skills that are holding us back or lack of, right? Like I must have a skill gap here. Maybe I should go get an MBA or maybe I should go do this other special, you know, degree at this Ivy League or whatever, right? We’re always looking to get more knowledge. And sometimes depending, especially if you’re in a technical space, you may be like, I need more domain knowledge, I need more, I need to go deeper. That’s often not what’s holding you back if your goal is leadership, right? If your goal is to move into an executive position, typically, executives are a little more generalist, right? They might have some, you know, function specific knowledge, domain specific knowledge, but they focus on seeing the big picture and understanding, you know, how things are going to affect the business as a whole. So I would say one step would be figuring out what is actually holding you back, right? It really…

Intentional and reflective in terms of what is holding me back today from getting to that next level. And then you can determine how do I need to fill that gap. Right? But if you don’t know what’s holding you back today, then it’s really hard. Right? And you’re like me, you’re like going in circles until you finally figure it out through some series of trial and error. So the two big things I see that actually hold people back, one is mindset.

Mary (18:34.666)
Hey

Katy McFee (18:44.974)
And the other is what I like to call the perception problem. So mindset might look like you’re not putting up your hand to share your ideas, right? You’re constantly asking for validation. You can’t make a decision on your own. Like all of that stuff, when you are lacking confidence, this is how it can show up. And it can be communicating to the people around you that you’re not ready for that next level in leadership.

Because we want somebody who’s confident, who’s decisive, who’s willing to take some risk. And the second, like I said, I call this the perception problem, but that is this issue where, hey, maybe you think you are ready for that next step, and maybe you’re right, but the people around you don’t see it. And this could be through the way you’re communicating your ideas, right? So.

A big thing that I tend to focus on with my clients is framing, how are you saying the things you say? Right? Are you presenting data and metrics or are you actually presenting strategic insights? How do you make that shift? So all there’s all this stuff that you can do to create more of the perception that no, I’m operating at that senior level. So I think oftentimes like those two buckets.

Are gonna cover the vast majority of people because if it really is a skill set, your boss can probably identify that with you pretty easily. Right? But if you’re getting more vague feedback, I don’t think you’re ready yet. You just don’t seem like you’re quite there. That could be one of these other problems.

Mary (20:17.125)
Yeah.

Mary (20:20.868)
Mm.

Mary (20:25.092)
Yeah. Yeah. Your mindset and a perception problem. So with the mindset piece, how would you work with somebody to help them shift their mindset?

Katy McFee (20:38.382)
Yeah, I mean, there is a lot that you can do, right? We know this now that our mindset is not fixed, right? It’s malleable, and so we can adopt habits and practices that will help us to be more growth -minded, but then also to build our confidence. So.

The way that I tend like the way I personally work with people on this is I actually have a group program for women who want to be executives So we go through all this stuff together There’s a lot you can do if you if you focus on you know you can even Google like ways to improve my confidence and You’re gonna see stuff and sometimes it comes down to getting outside your comfort zone intentionally

Mary (21:08.705)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mary (21:20.577)
Yeah?

Katy McFee (21:27.278)
Right? Which might look like putting up your hand in a meeting, but if you’re not there yet, maybe it looks like getting in cold water. Or maybe it looks like going for a run. Like, you can do things outside of your work life that will boost your confidence and then help you show up more confidently at work.

Mary (21:28.833)
Mm -hmm.

Mary (21:45.633)
Mm. Yeah.

Katy McFee (21:49.518)
Right? Or even just starting small. I’m going to speak up in this meeting. Maybe I’m not going to speak up in that one yet. I’m going to speak up in this one. And so it’s just continuously doing things that push you a little bit outside your comfort zone. One of the other things you can do is, I always say, like, keep a brag sheet. Keep a list of all the great things you do and update and read it. Right? Like, remind yourself how awesome you are and what you’ve achieved up until this point.

Mary (22:08.799)
Yeah. Yes.

Katy McFee (22:20.078)
So there’s lots of things you can do. Affirmations as well, right? Affirmations are really powerful in terms of helping to shift your mindset. So maybe you’re saying to yourself every morning, I’m a confident and decisive leader, you know, every day. And the more you do that, the more you’re gonna start to show up as that person.

Mary (22:35.679)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Yep. Yep. I love it. There’s so many different ways that you can shift your mindset and it’s just so impactful. Your mind can literally shift the trajectory of your entire day, your entire week, your entire life. And I love what you said about stepping outside of your comfort zone and how that doesn’t necessarily need to be, you know, raising your hand in that meeting, but it could be something that’s in your personal life that you’re just kind of practicing putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation because the more you put yourself in uncomfortable situations, the more comfortable you’ll be when you are uncomfortable. That’s a lot of words, but yeah, it’s so true.

Katy McFee (23:26.254)
Totally.

Katy McFee (23:30.418)
Well, I say this all the time to people because I do a lot of things that people think are crazy. And I say like part of the reason I do this stuff is that when something then like really tough happens in my life, I know I can deal with it. That might be in my business. It might be my personal life. But I’m like, I do hard stuff every day so I can do this thing. Right. So you’re you’re you’re training your brain to know that. And so I think, yeah, there’s so much power in that.

Mary (24:00.472)
For sure, for sure. And I read a statistic somewhere that women make up over 47 % of the workforce, but of those only 42 % hold managerial roles or executive level roles. And in fact, I think it was 42 % hold managerial roles. So it’s probably even fewer than that that hold executive roles. So what are the, I guess, what are the three biggest roadblocks that women tend to face.

Katy McFee (24:33.934)
Yeah, this is a tough one. So to your point, the gap, it’s called the promotion gap, it’s also called the broken rung. This starts at the very first promotion to manager where 87 women are promoted for every hundred men, which may not seem like a massive gap.

Mary (24:45.815)
Mm.

Katy McFee (24:57.518)
But it is, right? And it compounds as you go up. So I always say the gender gap widens as you go up in a company. Once you get to the VP level, I believe this year, so there was the McKinsey and LinkedIn Women in the Workforce report that they publish every year. Women held the highest percentage of C -suite roles at, I believe it was 30%, which is not bad.

However, we are still seeing a lot of challenges. We’re seeing women leaving senior leadership because of burnout. We’re seeing, you know, we’re still seeing a lot of bias in terms of the way women are treated in the workforce. And so in terms of the roadblocks, I would say part of it is like a systemic bias problem where women are promoted on experience and men are promoted on potential, you might have heard that before. That is definitely a real thing. I mean, there’s the fact that women tend to work the second shift when we get home, where men can put all of their effort into maybe building their career. Oftentimes women and especially moms tend to take on that whole extra responsibility…

Mary (25:59.828)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

Katy McFee (26:26.67)
…Of taking care of the kids and organizing this, maybe caring for a sick relative and planning all the stuff and cleaning the house, all this stuff, right? So I think that is a big one. And I think, I guess the third one that I really see, and this partly impacts what we are willing to put ourselves forward for, is the lack of representation. So because we’re not seeing ourselves represented, we might not even apply to those roles.

Right? We may not, like you do see women who are like, I am gonna make, I wanna break the glass ceiling. I’m gonna make it happen. And maybe they’re frustrated because it’s not happening for them, but they are seeking out support in order to like make this happen. But then you have a whole bunch of women who are like, well, I just got pregnant for the first time. I probably shouldn’t even apply for that promotion. they’re not gonna wanna, I’m gonna mat leave or.

Mary (27:02.064)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (27:24.494)
You know, but like I can’t, I just can’t put in 80 hours a week because I have young kids and so, like you have women that just because they’re not seeing other women in senior leadership, they’re going to be less likely to put themselves forward. And I really feel that, you know, certainly for the first and the third, those problems will be solved by getting more women in leadership. Like the more women in senior leadership at a company, the better in terms of one, obviously creating that representation for women, but two, reducing bias. So there’s actually data out there that shows when you have women at the board, when you have women at the senior leadership level, the language used by the people that work at that company will be less biased in terms of what they believe women can do and how they perceive women. So it’s so interesting and challenging. It’s like,

Mary (28:17.549)
Hmm.

Katy McFee (28:25.742)
The problem and the solution are the same. The problem is we don’t have enough women in senior leadership. The solution is women in senior leadership. So this is why this is like my mission. There are so many challenges and some of them we can address at the individual level and some of them are systemic. But I really believe that getting more women to senior leadership, however we do it, is going to help fix a lot of this stuff.

Mary (28:27.818)
Yeah.

Mary (28:35.434)
Yes!

Mary (28:51.658)
Yeah.

Mary (28:56.104)
Yeah, it’s a big mission to tackle. Yeah, you know, it’s hard for me to fathom that unconscious bias still exists in the workplace today, but it obviously does. I mean, you know, even Katie with you mentioning that most women are promoted based on experience, but men are promoted based on potential. That just like that makes my heart drop into my stomach. I’m like, that’s awful. Like that’s, you know, it’s unconscious bias.

Katy McFee (28:58.382)
Thanks.

Mary (29:24.807)
at its finest. So how can women navigate this?

Katy McFee (29:29.966)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (29:33.774)
So obviously, as you know, I mean, I work with women to try and break through. I really think that the more we can focus on the things we can control, right? So how am I presenting myself? What connections and relationships am I building both inside my company and outside? Am I showing up as the leader I want to be? All of that stuff, that is going to help, right? The more you’re signaling, I am ready for that.

The more you’re putting up your hand and taking on some leadership responsibility even before you have that role. And this is an interesting one because some people don’t agree with me on this, but I’m like, the more you can demonstrate you’re there, the easier it is gonna be to land in that position. Because right, some people will say, if they offer you more responsibility without a raise, don’t take it. Like you’re not, you’re not anyone’s, you know, whatever. You should, you need to know your worth. And I’m like, I know that’s strategic to me. Demonstrate you’re ready, especially if you can get a title bump without a promotion, take that title bump. Because guess what? If they’re not going to give you the raise that goes along with that.

Mary (30:28.999)
Mm -hmm.

Mary (30:35.907)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (30:48.814)
You now have leverage to go anywhere else you want in this new, you’re on a new level now. So, you know, it’s again, it’s how you choose to perceive something. You could perceive it as like, I’m being wronged, or you could perceive it as this is a great opportunity. I’m going to leverage this. So I really think it’s almost like the like Amelia Earhart story where she

Mary (30:53.771)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (31:13.966)
Takes her first flight, right? And she’d been wanting to be a pilot, women weren’t allowed. And when they finally came to her, they said, yes, you can do this flight, but like a man’s actually gonna fly the plane. You’re basically gonna get paid like nothing compared to what he’s getting paid and you might die. And we’re doing this for publicity. And she could have easily been like, no thank you. But she was like, sign me up, let’s do it. Because in her mind, she’s like, is this an ideal circumstance? No, but this is how I’m gonna get it done.

Mary (31:34.435)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (31:44.238)
So for women, I love that attitude. Like, yes, we want to fix the bias, right? We want to create a more equitable workforce. I am such a believer in that. And I talk to men about it all the time, like what they can do, what CEOs can do, right? How they can hire in a more equitable way. But as women, I’m like, we are where we are. And so let’s take that flight, even if it’s not ideal.

Mary (31:58.496)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

Katy McFee (32:12.878)
Because that’s gonna get us there. And then we can start to create the change that we wanna see. So I’m a big believer in that in just keeping that type of attitude. And I mean, as women as well, if you’re looking at your company and there are no women on the leadership team, and you can tell that there is some pretty apparent bias, you can consider, is this the place that I wanna do this or if I look over here where there’s a couple C -suite women, there’s a few female VPs, like do I wanna go try to build my career there where I know that they’re already empowering women in these leadership positions? So we can also make some of those choices for ourself that I think is important because…

Mary (32:57.021)
Mm.

Katy McFee (33:11.246)
Like, let’s face it, it’s going to be more difficult at some companies than others. And cultures do really vary. So, you know, we talked about bias. I interviewed a CEO a while back who is above sort of the industry standard in terms of women at the C -suite in his company. And they started out just a few dudes who knew each other. And so I asked, I was like, how do you do this? Because so many men I know at the C -suite are like,

Mary (33:36.06)
Hehehe

Katy McFee (33:40.718)
Well, we want women, but we just can’t find any with enough, you know, with the right experience or qualified. And I said, you know, it’s a challenge because women, because it takes us longer to get there because of the promotion gap, we aren’t going to have the same number of years of experience. And he was like, yes. He said that he’s a believer in hiring first time VP or C -suite and really focusing on traits and skills as opposed to years of experience.

Mary (34:10.073)
Mmm. Yeah.

Katy McFee (34:10.606)
And so that’s partly what needs to happen from the top down. And so looking at companies, looking for companies that are already examples of this, women can choose to try to build their career at companies like that.

Mary (34:28.768)
Yeah. Yeah. And I love the idea of, you know, how can you really demonstrate that you’re there, right? That concept where it’s like, and I totally agree with you, Katie, it’s if an opportunity lands in your lap to have a promotion, even if it’s just a title, take it. I’m a huge believer in that too, because if you’re trying to get to that next level, get that title, get that promotion,

Chances are you’re going to be doing, you know, the things that you would be doing in that position anyway. You’re going to be going above and beyond. You’re going to be taking on different initiatives, managing different projects, leading different, you know, maybe establishing different strategies within the company to make that happen, to take that next step. So if a title’s on the line, then heck yeah, take it. Yeah.

Katy McFee (35:20.974)
Yeah, I could totally agree. I’m like, why not? The worst thing that happens is you get the title and then six months down the line, they still don’t want to give you the raise. And you say, OK, maybe I might start shopping around. So yeah.

Mary (35:26.136)
Yeah.

Mary (35:38.356)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that many women are kind of culturally shaped into thinking that women can either be competent or they can be likable in some situations, you know, but they can’t be both. And I simply don’t think that this is true, but I do find myself, I guess, questioning my own expertise every once in a while. And, you know, that can certainly affect my own confidence. So talk to me about how we can communicate more confidently.

Katy McFee (36:09.774)
Yeah, this is such a thing, especially with women, right? Because we, okay, I was actually listening to a podcast that addressed this in like the best way that I had heard yet. And it was on Tory Dunlap’s podcast, The Financial Feminist. And it was, I think, Karen, sorry, Kara Lowenthal was on it. And they were talking about this idea that from an evolutionary perspective, right,

Mary (36:19.796)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (36:39.502)
We want people to like us. Everyone does. If you get kicked out of the hunter gatherer tribe, you get like eaten by a tiger and you die, right? Or you starve. And so we want to be part of the group. And that’s so like hardwired that it’s really hard to fight against that. In combination with that, as women, we are conditioned to believe that people liking us looks like looking a certain way.

Mary (36:40.98)
Mm -hmm.

Mary (36:46.676)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (37:05.998)
Doing everything everybody wants to, putting everyone else first, not making a fuss, making ourselves smaller, all of these things, right, that we learn when we’re like four years old, the Disney princess waiting for the prince, which I think they’ve gotten better at that over the years. But, you know, so both of these things now, we have the hardwired everyone needs to like me with the conditioning of that’s what this looks like. And so I think that’s why as women, we struggle so much to advocate for ourselves or to…

Mary (37:32.719)
Hmm. Hmm.

Katy McFee (37:35.694)
push back or to show too much confidence, too much, right? And to make just layer on an extra layer of badness. Society has also been conditioned in terms of what women’s behavior should look like. It should be more different. It should be more submissive. It should be more nurturing.

Mary (37:46.543)
Hehehe

Katy McFee (38:04.974)
And so when we demonstrate something outside of that, people are like, that’s not what I think girls should do, right? And so all this stuff gets jumbled together. And so the reason I bring this up is that if it seems hard, yeah, it is. It’s a hard thing. With that said, if we think about, so Vanessa Van Edwards is a woman who wrote a book about charisma.

Mary (38:12.591)
Hehehe

Katy McFee (38:33.454)
And she talks about charisma being warmth and competence. And I love that because I think it’s so true. And she’s like, competence without the warmth, people don’t believe. Like you really need both. And so as women, we’re actually typically a little better off in the warmth department. Right? Like we’re good at making connections with people. We’re great at remembering

Mary (38:53.515)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (38:59.374)
the details and knowing this person’s name or remembering that their dog was sick or like all of those things that people recognize that you care. We tend to be so focused on leveling up on the competent side, which I think is great, right? We want to come off as competent as well, but we really want to marry those together. So, you know, in terms of communicating in a confident way, part of that means

Mary (39:03.979)
Yeah.

Mary (39:17.675)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (39:28.814)
Getting rid of some of those filler sentences that we tend to say, like the qualifiers. Well, this might be a dumb idea, but you know, or, you know, I’m not really sure this is gonna work, but maybe we could, like, chances are you have thought really hard about that idea and it’s a good freaking idea. So instead of saying that, say, my recommendation is, boom, right? Like, continue to have.

Mary (39:32.843)
Mm.

Mary (39:37.067)
Hehehehe

Mmm.

Katy McFee (39:57.07)
The connection, like create those connections, create that warmth through your connection with people. You don’t need to do it by making yourself smaller in a meeting.

Mary (40:08.166)
Ooh, I love that. Wow, that’s so powerful.

And I want to talk just briefly too about imposter syndrome. And you know, it’s very common among women. And I mean, I fall victim to this as well. And I’m sure a lot of our listeners do. How can we effectively manage imposter syndrome and self -doubt?

Katy McFee (40:32.622)
Yeah, yeah, imposter syndrome is a big one, right? It’s so funny because imposter syndrome is one of those things that I’m gonna say like 90 % of successful people I know have felt this. Men and women, women a little bit more, but even like a lot of the really successful men I know have admitted to feeling this way. So I’m almost like, how is this even a thing? It’s like we all experience this and we still kind of feel like we’re the only ones.

Mary (40:34.854)
Mmm.

Katy McFee (41:00.11)
When you’re feeling imposter syndrome, you’re like, everyone else has it together and I don’t. But part of it is reminding yourself, literally almost everyone feels this way. So I like to think, when I think about imposter syndrome, it’s coming from one of two places. It’s either coming from inside and it’s,

Mary (41:10.214)
Hehehe

Katy McFee (41:22.158)
It’s a result of growing quickly, maybe being outside your comfort zone in terms of like a new environment, a new role, like maybe you’re feeling stretched. Like anytime you’re stretching yourself, you feel uncomfortable and that feeling comes up. Every new role, especially like I remember when I went into my EVP role, I was like, what have I done? Like, I convinced them to give me this job and they’re gonna be like, no. Right?

Mary (41:42.562)
hahahaha

Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (41:50.254)
We all feel this way and especially like the higher up you get, you’re like, my gosh, now I’m a director. They’re gonna see I actually suck. So part of it is pinpointing where is it coming from? Is it coming from this internal, like I’ve just been growing a lot and so that feels uncomfortable and it should. Like we know growth feels uncomfortable. Whenever you’re growing, you feel uncomfortable. So if that is the case, you wanna do a reframe. You wanna remind yourself one that

Chances are every person in the room with you has felt this way. But secondly, that discomfort is a very normal part of growth. And like, I’m growing myself, I’m stretching myself. Yeah, I feel uncomfortable. What can I do to set myself up for success? Okay, I’m gonna make a list of all the people in my network who I can reach out to. If I wanna get a second opinion, if I wanna like, you know, get an expert’s thoughts. You know, maybe I’m going to…

Like learn some new stuff, like maybe I actually have a little bit of a skill gap and I’m gonna level up there, or maybe I’m going to, you know, focus on reminding myself every day what I’m doing here, whatever, you gotta ask like what’s gonna work for you. On the flip side, feelings of imposter syndrome can also come from your environment. It can come from people like really not making you feel like you are invited to the table. And that’s really hard for you to impact.

There was a Harvard Business Review article about stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because absolutely, if you’re in a toxic environment, if you’re working in an environment where you are belittled, you are not valued, your ideas are not heard, that’s going to start to impact you. You can be the strongest person in the world. That’s going to impact you. And so if that’s the case,

Mary (43:36.445)
Mm.

Katy McFee (43:47.726)
Then I think you need to really ask yourself, is this the place for me? Can I continue to be here and maintain a healthy mindset? And if not, what is my game plan? Am I building strong connections internally in other departments? Like maybe I need to move departments. Am I considering another organization? But getting really clear on which one of those it is, I think is so important because when you are in a supportive environment, feeling will go away, probably in a matter of months, right? If you feel valued from day one and people wanna hear your ideas and you’re allowed to fail and all of those things that happen in a healthy environment, you’re probably not going to still have imposter syndrome, you know, six months down the road.

Mary (44:38.508)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so how do you actually help women show up as the leaders that they want to be? Like, how do you help them overcome that imposter syndrome and actually show up?

Katy McFee (44:52.366)
Yeah, I mean, it’s a lot of things, right? So I tend to focus partly on mindset, right? I think mindset is an important focus for anyone, regardless of like where you are at. You know, you want to focus on, on confidence and imposter syndrome and limiting beliefs, like what limiting beliefs you hold today, how can we work through those? But then also on self -awareness, on learning to be really discerning as opposed to judging, right? We do a lot of self -judgment, not helpful, but

Mary (45:19.16)
Mm -hmm.

Katy McFee (45:22.606)
But honest discernment, kind discernment is helpful. That allows us to reflect and get better. So I focus on that piece with women, and then I focus on all of the sort of exec skills packaging up the greatness that you already are, right? Which might look like your communication style, how to bring forward great insights, how to demonstrate strong judgment, you know, how to build your expertise, all of that stuff.

And so those are kind of the main areas. And then I also focus on habits and boundaries. I’m like habits, you know, creating the right daily habits can truly change your life. And I saw a stat once that it was like 90 % of new insights that we gain or lost within six months. And I was, ooh, that’s not good. And so to me, it’s like the way that you take a great insight and turn it into lasting change in your life is a habit. It is an actual change that you’re making in your life. So that’s sort of the third area that I focus on, building strong habits. And then that’s really tight, closely tied to boundaries for me in terms of like, what healthy boundaries do you have in your life and at work so that you can do all of these things, create this great career, but then still have a life that you love and not burn yourself out.

Mary (46:20.504)
Mm.

Mary (46:44.242)
Love it. So what’s one piece of advice that you would give your younger self about achieving success in executive leadership?

Katy McFee (46:54.978)
Okay, an executive leadership.

Mary (46:57.266)
Hmm.

Katy McFee (47:00.43)
I mean, so I’m gonna first give you a piece of advice, just career in general.

Mary (47:05.33)
I can re -ask that question and remove the executive leadership piece if you’d prefer to. Yeah, okay. So what advice would you give your younger self about achieving success?

Katy McFee (47:10.798)
Sure, I mean, I can probably answer both, but yeah.

Katy McFee (47:23.054)
The biggest thing I like to talk about with respect to success in your career is that you are on your own path, right? You’re on your own journey. We tend to feel so behind because I haven’t been promoted yet. My friend’s making 5K more than me or they’re doing this. I’ve seen so many people so unhappy where they are because they, their perception is that everyone is doing better than them. And you know, for me, when I was trying to, especially when I was trying to get that VP role, everyone I knew that was becoming a VP, I was like, it was like a dagger through my heart. Like I was just like, it was so painful. Why not me? And the thing I learned is like, if that’s what you want and you’re willing to put the work in, you’ll get there. You will eventually get there. Your career is long, right? And your life on the other hand is kind of short. So.

Mary (48:02.514)
Yeah.

Katy McFee (48:22.254)
Yes, work towards the things that you want, but don’t forget to like take that vacation with your family or take a day off to volunteer at your kid’s school or, you know, go on a date night instead of working late or whatever, because we do eventually achieve those things. But if you haven’t created a life that you love around it, that promotion is probably not gonna make you happy. So with me, I worked for so many years to like finally get to this place.

And then when I got there, I was like, well, now what? Right? Like I don’t know what I thought was going to happen. I got there, I just thought it was going to be like raining money and I don’t know what it looked like, but it was kind of a letdown. Right? Cause I was like, this is it. Like, okay, cool. And so, you know, that, that set me on a new path of being really intentional about like, how am I designing my life?

Mary (48:54.604)
Mm.

Mary (49:01.227)
Yeah, that’s what I was imagining too.

Katy McFee (49:19.79)
And is it a life that I really love and enjoy and feel fulfilled in, maybe outside of my career, as well as in my career?

Mary (49:32.172)
This has been an amazing, amazing conversation today, Katie. So what are you up to now and where can we find you on social media?

Katy McFee (49:41.582)
So I post every day on LinkedIn. If you like what I talked about today, I talk about this stuff all the time. I post every single day about being a woman in leadership and tips and all kinds of stuff. So that is a great place to follow me. And then if you like that stuff, I also do like a free newsletter. There’s all kinds of stuff that you can get of mine. I’ve got a free resources page on my website and all kinds of stuff. And I mean, the other thing is if you’re a woman and you want to…

Breakthrough to the executive level. I do a program specific to that, that combines some structured teaching, right, to help you see those blind spots, some group coaching to deal with very specific, you know, questions, challenges, and then also a community of women who are kind of in the same boat, going through the same journey. And that program is like, I’m so passionate about it. It’s so near and dear to my heart because I created it for…

Me who was stuck, right? I’m like all the people who are where I was. So that is the thing I love doing the most. It brings me so much energy and it’s probably my favorite part of my business. So if you’re interested in that, you can find that stuff on my website and stuff as well.

Mary (50:39.111)
Mm -hmm.

Mary (50:56.135)
Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on today, Katie.

Katy McFee (50:59.182)
Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun!