In a world often dominated by skin-deep interactions and disposable connections, the ability to engage in meaningful conversations is a valuable skill. This week on Recruiting Insider, we had the privilege of speaking with Leah Smart, host of the LinkedIn podcast, Every Day Better. Leah, a seasoned podcaster and educator, shared her insights on the psychology behind effective conversations and offered practical strategies for fostering deeper connections.
Contrary to popular belief, small talk serves as a crucial foundation for building trust and rapport. Leah emphasized that small talk acts as a gateway to more meaningful conversations, allowing us to connect with others on a surface level before delving deeper. By engaging in casual banter, we can establish a sense of comfort and familiarity that paves the way for more substantial discussions.
One of the most surprising revelations from Leah’s interview was the emphasized importance of listening. In a society often preoccupied with expressing our own thoughts and opinions, actively listening to others is a skill that is frequently overlooked. Leah highlighted that by truly listening to our conversation partners, we create a safe and welcoming space for them to share their perspectives and feel valued.
To keep conversations engaging and meaningful, it’s essential to ask thoughtful and open-ended questions. Leah suggested using “what” and “how” questions to encourage deeper reflection and avoid leading or closed-ended inquiries. By focusing on the process of listening and asking insightful questions, we can foster a more dynamic and enriching conversation.
Leah emphasized the importance of genuine connection in building meaningful relationships. She advised against superficial interactions and encouraged us to seek out opportunities for authentic engagement. By being present, attentive, and interested in others, we can create lasting connections that enrich our lives.
Leah also offered valuable advice for job seekers looking to build meaningful relationships on LinkedIn. She emphasized the importance of personal branding, showcasing your unique qualities and interests. Additionally, she recommended going beyond surface-level connections and actively seeking opportunities for in-person or virtual interactions. By building genuine relationships with recruiters and industry professionals, you can increase your chances of landing your dream job.
In conclusion, mastering the art of meaningful conversations requires a combination of active listening, thoughtful questioning, and genuine connection. By following Leah Smart’s insights, we can cultivate deeper relationships, enhance our communication skills, and create a more fulfilling and meaningful life.
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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/50WoiemtuCQjxyhDmRRzSV
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqYnj-gA410&list=PLr1RB0ygkFCYEjdoc7F-Pr_aY9JZnM5b_
Mary (00:01.182)
Leah Smart, welcome to Recruiting Insider.
Leah Smart (00:03.062)
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Mary (00:07.23)
Leah is the host of the LinkedIn podcast, Every Day Better. She started her career in New York at the age of 23 in sales, but after feeling completely lost in what she wanted in her career and her life, she found her way. She left the linear path to become a journalist, a podcaster, and an educator. Now she makes psychology, meaning, and happiness accessible through the stories of some of the brightest scientific minds and the bravest storytelling hearts on the planet to help others live better every single day. Hundreds of thousands of people come to our show and our platform to live a more intentional, genuine and empowered life. And I’m one of those hundreds of thousands. So today we’re going to discuss a topic that I’m super excited about, how to have better conversations.
We all crave really good conversations, right? But sometimes it just feels awkward. So what’s one surprising thing you’ve learned about the psychology behind having a good conversation?
Leah Smart (01:20.238)
Well, first, thank you so much for that intro. And I’m so like honored that you’re one of the people who come to the show. So I’m excited to be able to be on yours. Yeah, you know, I, so I would by no means consider myself an expert in conversations, but I will say that since I was really young, I always enjoyed getting into deep and what I felt like were meaningful conversations. I was never very good at small talk and I’ll admit I’m still not good at small talk.
Mary (01:27.421)
Yes.
Mary (01:49.756)
Yeah.
Leah Smart (01:49.806)
One surprising thing I’ve learned in talking to different people who study communication and study conversations is actually that small talk is really important and in fact can be really valuable because it’s how we get to know and trust people at a really kind of surface level and important in an important place. And it’s sort of like the gateway, right? So I used to sort of bypass that and think, well, if I can have a really rich conversation, then haven’t we built a great relationship and built trust? And that’s just not always true. So there are, you know, levels and ways in which we can get to really strong conversations. So I’d say that was one surprising thing. And then I think the thing that for me is I was training to become a coach for a year. I was coaching people. I was sitting down and learning myself. And I learned actually that listening was one of the most important skills when it came to having conversations. And I think so much of us put pressure on what we’re going to say instead but that’s actually not where it belongs.
Mary (02:54.139)
Yeah. And I think that I have the opposite problem of you where I could talk small talk forever. I love the small talk, but when people try to dig deep with me, it’s harder for me to communicate those deep thoughts. Right. And, and it’s, you know, maybe it’s because I’m an introvert. I have a hard time really letting people into my bubble. So communicating and going deeper is, is really hard. So I think that’s something that we’ll kind of touch on.
Leah Smart (03:14.958)
Hmm.
Mary (03:20.986)
a little bit later today. And I loved what you said about the listening piece too, because I think that that’s so important. You know, and we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, like you said, to really maybe even perform in a conversation when what the majority of people want is just someone to listen to them, right? And it seems to really go against like human nature that the psychology really behind a good conversation is that it’s less about you being interesting and talking and more about how you’re listening and how you’re making that other person feel. Because I think I read somewhere pretty recently that our brains are really wired for self -interest, right? So talking about ourselves can feel really rewarding, and sometimes it’s tempting to do that a lot. But research really shows that people actually find conversations way more enjoyable and memorable when they actually feel heard and understood when you’re listening to them.
Leah Smart (04:22.926)
Well, yeah, I mean, you think about like we’re wired for… I was gonna say when you think about the fact that we’re wired to connect with people, right? And so part of that is also being interested in people wanting to be interested in us. Like we like people being interested in us. And I think this hit home for me in Dale Carnegie’s book, which was How to Win Friends and Influence People. It’s an old book, it’s been around forever, but it still has really solid advice.
Mary (04:24.057)
It’s really hard.
Leah Smart (04:50.67)
And one of the things he focuses on is how important it is to actually ask people questions. And so it is also a practice to have to sit back and go, okay, I’m not gonna talk about myself. I’m not gonna talk about myself. I’m just gonna sit back and listen. And I’m not even gonna do the thing where I go, me too. I remember that time I had this thing and bring it back to myself. I might even try to ask a second question after I asked the first one.
Mary (05:04.184)
Yeah.
Mary (05:10.328)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mary (05:17.24)
Mm -hmm. I’m so guilty of that sometimes. It’s really hard for a lot of us to come up with great questions, especially when it’s on the spot, too, when you’re talking to somebody that maybe you don’t know very well. What are some strategies for asking thoughtful questions in the moment, even if the conversation does take an unexpected turn?
Leah Smart (05:44.27)
Yeah, so I would say as someone who’s a coach, some of the most interesting questions you can ask isn’t necessarily about the content, it’s about the way it’s structured, or they are about the way that they’re structured. What questions, questions that start with the word what, can be really, really powerful. How questions can be really powerful, where a why question or a closed question, closed ended question, can shut people down.
So I kind of naturally now am drawn to the what and the how questions. And I think if you just start with that idea that every question can start with a what and that opens people up, right? So if I’m asking a question that’s what, you have to actually go into your mind and start thinking about something. Your response is going to be very different than the simple yes or no to an if question or even the shutdown of experiencing a why question. Sometimes why can feel like someone’s judging you. So I like those questions. I also think that questions that are short have a lot of value. And sometimes we think that things have to be really intricate, but one of the best questions I’ve ever asked someone is what do you want? It will send people to some crazy places, right? and not that you’re coaching everybody you’re in conversation with, or maybe anybody, but even a question, if it, if it, you know, you talked about being able to do small talk and not going deeper.
Mary (07:03.861)
Hehehehe.
Leah Smart (07:11.278)
Sometimes it’s not that you have to go deep, it’s that maybe you go kind of up into like, what’s happening right now in the zeitgeist? What’s happening in the world right now? And just asking someone a question of like, what do you think about that? Or what do you make of that? You know, those kinds of questions, take the pressure off of you, invite someone else into the picture to share their perspective, right? So you’re sort of getting the double positive of going.
Mary (07:19.029)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Leah Smart (07:37.678)
I’m asking someone a question so they will like me more because that’s just the reality. And I don’t have to fill the space because now they’re answering, right? And then I can just intently listen and a conversation can start because of that one short what or how question.
Mary (07:43.764)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (08:02.036)
Yeah, I love the why too. I think that that’s something that I try to incorporate in my own conversations because that can help you, you know, dig a little bit deeper if somebody’s talking about something and you ask them, you know, why, why did you choose to visit that particular place? It’ll prompt them to go even deeper into that. So that’s, you know, that’s amazing. And that’s something that I’m always trying to do is, you know, if I’m in conversation with somebody, how can I figure out how to get them to go a little bit deeper? So if they provide like a super brief response, trying to prompt them with like, can you elaborate on that or what led you to feel that way? Or different questions like that to really take the conversation to that next level and to keep it going and to make them think a little bit deeper about, what is it that they’re talking about? Why do they feel that way? What led them to feel that way? Can they talk about it a little bit more?
And then, you know, you’ll pick up gems along the way, I’m sure, as they start to dig deeper into that topic and that conversation.
Leah Smart (09:06.478)
And it’s really about how you also then, how you focus on listening, right? So if you’re then getting so focused on how many questions you ask or, you know, the quality of the question, you are no longer present with the conversation. So I also think when we talk about having good conversations, when you can, and when you can intentionally do this, we don’t all do this all the time, you slow down.
Mary (09:18.706)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (09:32.434)
Yeah, yeah.
Leah Smart (09:33.358)
Right? And it’s just like you decide, okay, I’m just going to intently focus on what Mary is saying right now. I’m not going to try to calculate in my mind what I’ll do next. And I’m comfortable with maybe a little bit of silence or I choose a little bit of discomfort so that we can actually have a real conversation.
Mary (09:55.218)
Absolutely. And I’m even working on that myself through podcasting where, you know, if I prepare a couple of questions instead of focusing on, okay, what am I going to ask next? Listen deeply to what that person is saying, because the conversation will be much better if you’re picking up on what they’re actually saying. And then you’re playing on that and you’re asking questions based on, you know, what it is that they’re putting down. You can pick that up and, you know, take the conversation and all.
Leah Smart (10:04.27)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (10:23.889)
different directions that may be even more interesting than what you originally planned.
Leah Smart (10:29.486)
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. We talk about that in coaching is like, can you dance in the moment?
Mary (10:32.721)
You know, and it’s really hard.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s hard to start a conversation with somebody that you don’t know. And, you know, for me that that’s incredibly difficult. Could you share maybe some conversation starters that go beyond like the weather, you know, what’s the weather like, you know, and something that may be able to be used in a variety of situations.
Leah Smart (10:54.446)
Mmm.
Leah Smart (11:00.142)
Sure, so I ask these three questions before I interview anybody. So at the very start, you know, someone gets on a call with you or gets on Riverside or walks into the studio with you and they have no idea who you are, right? They know that they’re, they maybe have been on 10 different podcasts in the last week. They know that they’re meant to be recording with you, that they’re meant to be sharing something probably to do with a book or a body of work or their story.
But they don’t know you. And I find that it’s really valuable to spend just this couple of minutes asking some questions to get them to loosen up and lighten up. So I use these three. The first one is what’s been giving you energy in the last week? And that brings people right up here, right? Like, I’m not asking you how you’re feeling, right? Because maybe you’re stressed, right? Like, maybe you’re maybe who knows, you know? But I’m asking you to…
Mary (11:51.696)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Leah Smart (11:59.31)
decide with your mind that you’re gonna focus on the good and then communicate the good to me, right? So like I’m also purposely putting you in a position to reframe even something that could be negative. Well, what’s the good about it? So that’s the first. I’ll ask them what has made them laugh recently. And I always love the responses are pets, kids, you know, it’s that, right? It’s pets, kids, family. And then what am I doing? I’m getting them to think about something that made them laugh.
Mary (12:12.335)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (12:20.206)
Yeah.
Leah Smart (12:27.63)
and the brain doesn’t know the difference between what’s happening in the moment and what happened in the past versus the future, which is why, you know, if I say to you, what was last Thanksgiving like, you’re going to have an immediate image. And maybe it’s the scent and the image of something somewhere that you were with your family. Maybe it’s brings back a smell of a certain type of food you love, right? You’re right back there. So it allows me to, again, keep them in a positive and excited place. And then I go deep and I’m like, what’s the intention behind your work?
Mary (12:51.47)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Smart (12:56.11)
We’re sitting here today, you know, and I’m like, I cut in because again, I’m that person, but you know, but most people never get asked that question is what I’ve noticed in my, you know, years of interviewing people. The intention’s very different than tell me about your book or tell me, you know, it’s, it’s sort of like you asked about the why, you know, you, it’s another way of asking why, why are you doing this work?
Mary (12:58.702)
Yeah. Yup. Yeah. All right. I don’t know.
Leah Smart (13:21.102)
And so when I say, tell me about the intention though, it takes them a little bit even deeper than I think then the why, because it puts them in that seat of like, yeah, there was some somewhere this came from here, right? Came from the core of me. And I’m gonna share that. And so people love that question and it opens them up. And then, gosh, that leads into so many different directions we can go.
Mary (13:36.365)
Yeah.
Mary (13:46.733)
absolutely. Those are three amazing questions that I was actually writing down as you are saying them because I’m like, this is good stuff. But yeah. And I’m always, you know, I just had a conversation recently with somebody who, you know, they told me to, you know, when I’m posting content on LinkedIn, and this is somewhat unrelated, but to have a Google Doc, so you’re writing down ideas, right? So now I’m getting into the habit of
Leah Smart (13:52.43)
Steal them!
Leah Smart (14:13.038)
Mm.
Mary (14:14.252)
If somebody gives me a really great idea or if I listen to a podcast and I’m like, that’s an amazing idea. I’m writing all of these things down. I have this big brain dump so that I can go back to it and think about it and, you know, write about it and, you know, really reflect on it in a much deeper way. Even if, even if it is, you know, me reflecting on it by myself in the corner of a room, but I love the idea of asking somebody, you know, what’s been giving you energy.
Leah Smart (14:34.446)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (14:41.579)
because that could branch off into so many different types of conversations because you’re also digging into what are your passions? What are you interested in? And like you said, I love the idea of that’s keeping it positive because if you just say, you know, how are you today? You may get a really great answer. You may get a really negative answer or you may get a one sentence answer, but what’s giving you energy that I absolutely love that question.
Leah Smart (15:04.75)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (15:09.547)
And then the intention to what’s the intention behind your work. That’s another one where it’s like, I mean, it is a great, I feel like it’s a good transitional question to go from that more surface level conversation. And then just to kind of begin digging a little bit deeper. And then, you know, the person that you’re asking that question to can decide how deep they actually want to go with you. You know, when, when they start.
thinking about what is the intention behind my work? You know, what are my passions? What, you know, what does it mean? Why am I writing this book, like you said? So I think that that’s exciting. Yeah, I mean, I’m learning a lot already from you, Leah. So you’re dropping some great knowledge over here.
Leah Smart (15:45.262)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Smart (15:51.502)
I love it.
Mary (15:58.282)
Does the dynamic of the conversation shift when you’re trying to have a meaningful conversation, like for networking purposes on LinkedIn, compared to like having a conversation in person?
Leah Smart (16:10.926)
I mean, so like just dialoguing on LinkedIn with someone through like comments or messages.
Mary (16:17.994)
Yeah, so if you’re trying to have to build more of a meaningful relationship on LinkedIn versus in person, how would that be different?
Leah Smart (16:31.822)
Well, if I was starting off and there was someone that I wanted to know, who I didn’t know, who I saw on LinkedIn, and this has happened before, I would…
know that it shifts aside from, let me actually rephrase that. The way that I have been approached, I’ve been approached in many ways on LinkedIn, the way that I most appreciate being approached is someone who’s sharing that they know something about me or my background. They’ve actually taken a look at my profile.
Maybe they’ve read a poster too. And that’s not to make, well, it’s not an ego thing, but it is the feeling of if someone were to want to get to know me, I’d want to know that they had done some sort of work to do that. And that’s what I do with people if I’m trying to get to know them and I don’t know them. I think that there’s a place for social media, you know, based relationships, but I would never want to just get to know someone online. I would have some…
thought in my mind of a future point where we’re either on Zoom or we’re meeting in person, if that’s possible. So I think there’s a place for online community, and I think there’s a place for online dialogue. But what I think is most important and as a proponent of true connection is getting to a point where you are in person with that person. Or if you’re deciding, I don’t need to be that close to them. Actually, let me pause there. I think that if the…
if the intention is to have a meaningful relationship, I don’t believe that that’s possible without either having a phone relationship, a Zoom relationship, or an in -person one.
Mary (18:23.271)
What advice then, I guess, playing off of that, would you have to job seekers that are trying to build a personal brand on LinkedIn? You know, so they’re connecting with people, they’re trying to interact and connect with recruiters and interact with recruiters. What are some strategies that they could use to try to build a more meaningful relationship with some of those recruiters that are on the platform?
Leah Smart (18:52.846)
That’s a good question.
So I think there’s the conversation of the personal brand, which is its own sort of bucket, right? Trying to, you know, and I don’t really love that phrase, but I get it. We all get what’s being asked of us, which is like, can you get online and show everybody who you are so they like you and they know what you stand for, right? Like that’s the goal. And they want to engage with you. So I think that’s its own bucket, which is like understanding your narrative.
Mary (19:16.102)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leah Smart (19:26.894)
you know, working to accept the narrative of who you are and also who you are becoming and who you want to be. And then thinking about and taking action to show on whatever platform you’re using that that’s who you are and or who you’re becoming. I think that’s naturally engaging for many people, right? So, if I were a recruiter, I could go to your profile for, for example, on LinkedIn and say, Mary’s been posting about these.
five topics in the last month. This is what she’s interested in. I’m interested in one of those actually, funny enough. And so I might want to engage with her more because of that. So I think there’s kind of like the personal brand is like, can you create a home where you showcase who you are? I think when it comes to building meaningful relationships with recruiters, I think it’s tough. I don’t know if there’s an exact answer or a science. And I haven’t had to do that in a while. So I may not be the best person to answer that question. But again, I’d go back to if it were me going to go look for a job and knowing that there are certain recruiters that I wanted to be connected with, I would be kind of digging in to see what I could learn about them. What’s available to me on their profile? What activity have they been, what have they been looking at? What events are they attending? Should I be going to those events? Maybe they’re LinkedIn events. Maybe they’re posting about something completely different. How can I use what I know about them that’s public and not weird to actually find a way to connect? So, you know, if for example, let’s just say they work at Salesforce and Dreamforce is coming up, which is Salesforce’s huge conference.
Mary (21:04.517)
Yeah.
Leah Smart (21:13.262)
Maybe I can mention something about that. Maybe I’m going, maybe I know someone there. I mean, you know, whatever it is. I think there’s a way to use the information that you have available to you to start building some of those relationships. But again, I think you got to get in person. And I also, my other thought I’d say about recruiters is that’s not the only way to get into a company. And I think a lot of job seekers, you know, are stuck in like the apply recruiter mode.
I would, if I were looking for a job today, be spending more time figuring out the other stuff that most of us know, but maybe don’t do as much, which is really doing the digging of who do I know at the company? Who do I know who’s connected to someone at the company? Can I do a little bit of due diligence on LinkedIn to figure out who the hiring manager might be that I’d want to be connected to? And what do we have in common? That’s what I’d be thinking about. And that’s, you know, relationships and the network you build have been how I’ve managed and navigated my own career.
Mary (22:16.931)
That’s really good advice because I do agree. You see a lot of people that are stuck in that, you know, they’re trying to reach out to all of these recruiters or they’re even just mass applying to all of these positions. And then they’re trying to figure out who’s the recruiter for the position when maybe they do need to go a little bit deeper than that. Right. So instead of just like you said, instead of just trying to connect with the recruiter who’s probably inundated with.
hundreds and hundreds of messages and people trying to reach out to them, go deeper than that and start figuring out who actually works for this company. Start connecting with those people, start building relationships with those people. Maybe you’ll be able to start conversations with them or jump on a 15 minute coffee chat to learn about what are the inner workings of this company? What’s the culture like?
What are the pain points in the company right now and how do your skills really align with those pain points? And that could give you a really good idea too of how to really create those career documents as you’re applying to some positions within that company too, right? So that could help you write your resume, write your cover letter, what you should put on your LinkedIn profile, all of those things. And then maybe eventually you’ll get some insider knowledge of who’s the hiring manager or hey, there’s a position that’s
Leah Smart (23:32.046)
Okay.
Mary (23:39.681)
coming up and you might be a good fit for this position. And it’s all a result of those relationships that you’ve built, those conversations that you’ve started. You know, as it maybe they start a little bit surface level, but then you have that coffee chat and they go a little bit deeper and you start to build an actual relationship with that person online and they give you that insider knowledge. And then before you know it, you have, you know, that really great connection and a job offer for that company. So I think, you know, just learning how to have those conversations online, especially on LinkedIn, and how to build those relationships like that could be really powerful.
Leah Smart (24:17.166)
Yeah, and I think some people, you know, I’ve noticed, you know, and this is true, I think for a lot of us, we maybe don’t realize how we’re perceived by other people when we are in the position of wanting something. So, you know, when you want a job, you might feel desperate, you know, a lot of job seekers, it’s like, you might be desperate, frustrated, annoyed, unsure. It’s a period of uncertainty. And despite all of that, I would recommend…
being intentional, even with all of that stuff going on. And the reason is, if you reach out to someone and just say, I want to be part of your network because I noticed that you work at this company, which I’ve seen those messages before, or can you take a look at my resume? I’m curious. That is the easiest way to make someone feel completely turned off or at least resentful, even if they say yes to helping you, because it’s the assumption that they’re not busy.
Mary (24:57.736)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Smart (25:13.678)
that you’ve given them a reason to actually work with you as a stranger, which again is why I suggest get yourself in places where you can meet people physically or at least virtually in events. Look for groups of people who are, you know, LinkedIn has a ton of groups. Look for groups, join a group, join a group event. Those things can be really meaningful because we remember who we get to see, even if it’s virtually, we remember that. We don’t have any real connection immediately to people that we don’t know who are reaching out to us online on a platform of over a billion people.
Mary (25:49.375)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree. If you reach out to somebody and you’re like, Hey, do this for me, do that for me. What do you think of this? And you haven’t built that relationship yet. The response is probably going to be either poor or you’re not going to get a response at all or none. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, and I
Leah Smart (26:04.142)
None.
Yes, I’ve seen it, Mary. I’m like, there’s no response.
Mary (26:12.958)
And I’ve fallen into that trap myself. I’ve done that, honestly, in the past. I’ve jumped on and I get really excited and I get it. You know, if you’re desperate, if you, you know, if you, you find somebody that you’ve been looking for, they finally connected with you and you’re like, you jump on it and you’re like, Hey, you know, do this. I need this. I need that. You know, I do this. I do that. You make it all about me, me, me again, instead of making it about you, you, you, right? So your goal isn’t to be like, Hey, can you do this for me? It’s more like, what can I do for you to make your life better? What can I do for you? And I saw an article on LinkedIn recently about comparing networking to currency, where it’s like, you want to make sure that you have a lot of currency in your bank built up before you start spending that currency. And the way to build that currency up is by helping others by providing value, providing insights. It’s not by asking for favors. Can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? It’s what value can I bring to those people that are within my network? And then over time, that’ll start paying off.
Leah Smart (27:09.262)
That’s right.
Leah Smart (27:26.03)
That’s right.
Mary (27:29.564)
So, and I know this is a little bit taking the conversation and a little bit different turn, because we went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but I do want to kind of reel it back in and talk, you know, we talked briefly about that small talk, but I do want to go a little bit deeper because I know the deep talk is, you know, where you’re, what you’re passionate about, something that you’re just really, really good about or good at, I should say. What are some strategies that you use to.
Leah Smart (27:35.79)
Ha ha.
Mary (27:59.676)
keep that conversation flowing naturally or to get into that deep conversation and then to keep it flowing.
Leah Smart (28:09.646)
So, yes, and when I say deep talk, I think sometimes people think like, my god, deep talk, I have to share my innermost secrets and open my heart to everyone. It’s like, no, no, no, you don’t. And you shouldn’t, right? Like, we should be discerning about who we share information with.
Mary (28:19.644)
Yeah. Whew.
Yeah.
Leah Smart (28:28.75)
Trust is built over time. I love the metaphor that trust is like a marble jar. One marble gets put in over time. Don’t act like someone’s is full if you just met them, you know, tonight. So I think that’s important. But what I’m talking about really is like meaningful conversations. And I, you know, the question I shared with you before, the what’s the intention behind your work is a really nice way. But let’s just say that like you’re not talking about that.
Asking a question of just what made you do this or what made you make this choice. Even something like, let’s say you’re at a networking event or online or in person. Just asking what was the reason you decided to come today? What made you show up here today? What was that question? Like it sounds so simple, but that’s different. That’s a different question than like.
It’s different than saying, hi, nice to meet you. What’s your name? Right? That’s obviously, but it’s an open question that invites someone to share. And again, like you said earlier, it’s a way to invite and then allow for discernment from the other person. So if I asked you, what made you show up today, you can say, I’ve been looking for jobs and I’m here. You can say, you know, I really wanted to get to know more people in this industry because I don’t know very many people.
Mary (29:26.522)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leah Smart (29:50.414)
And sometimes it feels a little isolating or like, I just don’t feel like I have enough of a network in this space. And that’s really important to me. well, I just found out something’s really important to you. got it. Yeah, I feel the same way. I think it’s really important too, because this is this. Is that how you’re thinking about it? Then we’ve gotten into a much more meaningful conversation pretty quickly that’s not asking you to share your deepest, darkest secrets. So I really think it’s about.
Mary (30:18.874)
Mm -hmm.
Leah Smart (30:20.654)
It’s about what you’re trying to understand. I think it’s about the intention behind wanting to have meaningful conversations. I used to go to, when I was in my earlier 20s, I used to go to these events called No Small Talk Parties. And you would go and you’d be with a bunch of, not a bunch, it’d be 15 people.
Mary (30:41.056)
Okay.
Leah Smart (30:44.941)
And so before the 15 people show up together, there are only seven invited and everyone can bring a plus one. So it ends up at around 14, 15. Everybody sends the host of the party three questions that they’d be curious to explore. And then everyone comes, there’s food, there’s, you know, everything, wine, it’s all there, it’s at someone’s house. And you just sit in a circle, set up in a circular way, and you toss all the questions that have been printed out into a hat and the first person kicks off, shares the question, the first question they pull out of the hat, and everyone discusses it, whoever wants to. If someone doesn’t want to talk about it, great. It’s all these open -ended questions, and so, like, I think that there are so many ways to get… Well, actually, let me finish this, which is, by the end of the night, this can go on for four to five hours.
And it is so engaging and it’s so interesting. And by the end of that night, you’re like, I feel so much more connected to these people. It doesn’t mean I know anything about the depths of their personal life, but it does mean that I know something about how they think and feel. I know something about what matters to them. I’ve shared what matters to me. And we’ve shared this kind of like meaningful space to have a conversation. And I used to just eat those up. So, and not everybody, everyone loves those, but I do think there’s a lesson in there of.
Mary (31:54.967)
Yeah.
Leah Smart (32:05.486)
realizing that there are all sorts of questions out there that you can ask. And again, that having really good conversations isn’t about your ability to entertain someone all the time or to always have an answer. A lot of times it’s your ability to sit back and listen when you ask an open -ended question.
Mary (32:25.239)
Yeah, it always comes back to listening, right? And I love that you made the distinction too, between having a deep conversation versus having a meaningful conversation. Because I do think that a lot of people, myself included, if I think, I want to have a deep conversation with someone, then I have to tell my deepest, darkest secrets when that’s not necessarily the case. You know, you can have a very, very meaningful conversation where you’re both getting a lot out of it, but you’re not necessarily sharing those, you know, inner workings of, you know, your deepest, darkest secrets. And, you know, you said asking questions that make people think and make them feel. And I think that that’s, those are two really powerful things or, you know, ways to really connect on that.
Leah Smart (32:49.646)
Hehehe
Mary (33:18.485)
next level and make it a meaningful conversation is really bringing in, you know, their thoughts. How are they thinking about this? How are they feeling about this? And there are just, you know, tons and tons of ways, tons of questions that you could ask to really evoke those types of feelings. And, you know, for our listeners who are like me and they’re, you know, super introverted, you may even want to come up with a few conversation starters before you go to that social gathering. Yeah. I mean, plan ahead. Yeah.
Leah Smart (33:43.886)
Yes.
Mary (33:48.085)
Because I mean, for me, even if I, if I don’t come up with them or, you know, sometimes I’ll even maybe practice them, which sounds silly, but then that helps me have better conversations. It’s just like an interview, right? If you practice, look at yourself in the mirror, sometimes even being on video for me, even in this podcast has helped because I can see myself when I’m talking and I’m getting more and more comfortable actually being behind the camera, but just practicing something, the more you practice it, the
Leah Smart (33:57.998)
Not at all.
Mary (34:17.076)
better you’ll get at it and conversations are no different. I love those social gatherings because you know, for somebody that isn’t a great communicator that has a hard time connecting with people, if you go to something like that, you just have to practice it over and over and you get to see other people and how they’re responding, how they’re interacting and you can just build different connections and really grow your conversational skills in a different and more meaningful way.
Leah Smart (34:46.798)
Yeah, and also just having, you know, I used to think I was an extrovert and I don’t really think I am anymore, maybe I never was. But I totally get socially awkward and shy and I don’t like networking events. And I think a lot of people assume that because I have a podcast and I talk, I do not like networking. Like it’s not fun and it’s partially because I don’t love small talk, but a lot of it is I don’t.
Mary (34:53.076)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mary (35:07.54)
Yeah.
Leah Smart (35:13.166)
I really get value out of smaller and more intimate interactions. So, you know, I tend to be more shy in larger groups, but then I will go and find one or two people that I feel like I could connect with and decide to really just kind of have a meaningful conversation with them. And that’s enough. You know, I don’t need to get to know every single person. So I do think it’s also about knowing yourself. I don’t think it’s odd to know questions you’d like to ask somebody to practice. We do those things because it’s important, not because we’re awkward. We just don’t have the same wiring as other people and that’s okay. So I think it’s just knowing yourself, knowing what makes you feel most confident, most comfortable. Of course, there’s going to be some discomfort, but most prepared. And then, you know, even at networking events deciding beforehand, like, am I going to stay the whole time?
Maybe not, maybe because of how I function, 30 minutes is enough for me. And do I need to meet three people or one? And with that one person, what’s my intention? And so I think it’s really just about like knowing yourself, you don’t need to be anybody else but yourself. The discomfort and the real like tough things come from trying to be somebody else and not being able to get there. So it’s like, you can stretch and grow, but…
Mary (36:17.422)
Yeah.
Mary (36:34.482)
Yeah, for sure.
Leah Smart (36:36.91)
you also don’t have to embody someone else, because they’re going to be them and you’re going to be you and everybody has a place and has value.
Mary (36:48.977)
Yeah, two things. I mean, I love the idea of not putting pressure on yourself to stay at the entire event. So knowing what are my intentions with going to this event? Maybe it’s to connect with one person. Maybe it’s to connect with three people and then being easy on yourself, right? If you’re, if it’s time to go, you’ve reached your max. It’s perfectly fine to leave the networking event before it’s over. You know, if that’s something that makes you comfortable. And then the other thing that you made me think about is just some of the best speakers in the world and how they practice their speeches hundreds, thousands of times. You know, they make it look effortless. Some of the best speakers, it’s, you know, they make it seem like they don’t practice their speeches at all when in reality it’s all very intentional. They’re planning it ahead. They’re practicing it. They’re practicing it again over and over again so that they can perfect it. And I think having great conversations and somebody that’s a really great conversationalist can kind of mimic that in a way where maybe challenge yourself to put yourself out there.
in different situations that you wouldn’t normally put yourself in and just practice starting a conversation, having a conversation, taking it just a little bit deeper, you know, and using some of these tips that, you know, Leah’s talked about today that you’ve talked about to really, you know, apply it to your own life and, and, you know, use it to your advantage and building relationships too, not only in your personal life, but in your professional life.
Leah Smart (38:38.894)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, I mean, people who think about actors or speakers, speakers are really just acting, right? Just making us, they’re making us think that they’re not just like actors make us think they didn’t sit and run lines for the last two and a half months to get ready for their Broadway show or for, you know, whatever they’re doing. Right. So it’s like, you prepare so much that it looks like you didn’t. Right. And that you also have the creative license. It’s like with a podcast, you, you prepare your questions, not so that you can reference them and read off a script. You prepare them so that you know where you’re headed and you can just.
Mary (38:47.822)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (38:53.486)
Yeah, right?
Leah Smart (39:10.496)
sink into a little bit more comfort of just being yourself because you know where you’re going. And things will surprise you, but you can always think about again if it comes to networking it’s like well I’m planning to leave in 45 minutes so I really just know I wanted to meet someone and I wanted to get these have this connection with them. So it’s preparing so that you don’t have to feel all of that anxiety.
Mary (39:36.622)
Love it. So what are the three key takeaways that you hope that our listeners will implement into their daily lives to have better conversation?
Leah Smart (39:49.166)
Yeah, so I’d say first is ask better questions. Consider how a short, less than five words, open -ended question might reach someone differently and try it on with someone you know. So I’d say that’s one. And just notice, like, what happens when you do that instead of what you might unconsciously do or just quickly do because you’re not actually thinking about it. And then I’d say the second one just practically on LinkedIn, thinking about networking, we talked a bit about job seeking and all of that is like, do your due diligence, reach out to people with real preparation so that someone that you reach out to, even if they say no, nobody can ever say you didn’t do some research and you didn’t reference something that you had in common or some of their work, right? That’s really about holding integrity for yourself and making sure that like you present the way that you really want to be presented because you know you’re amazing but there are so many people online that they just might not know upfront. And then we didn’t talk a whole lot about listening but…
I will say there’s more than one, in coaching there’s more than one level of listening. We say there’s a first, second, and third level. And the way I’ll just phrase it is a lot of times we’re listening to respond. So I think of that like ping pong. You’re just going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, right? And there’s a place for that in a lot of conversations. That’s what makes conversations fun. But then if you want to take it to the next level and go a little bit deeper, the second level feels.
Maybe more like tennis where you know you’re there’s a little bit more space in the ball as the ball flies up and over the net and toward the other person right a little bit more space the other way you’re actually allowing yourself to hear what someone’s saying and to decide the direction you want to go which takes you out of just being self -interested and puts you in the mode of someone who is giving somebody else the opportunity to be seen and heard. And that will transform every relationship you have, I promise. People don’t forget how seen they felt or how heard they felt by someone. Because so many of us don’t do it, you will stand out above many people if you do that. So play tennis, not ping pong when it comes to relationships or conversations and see what happens.
Mary (42:18.953)
I love that. That’s powerful.
What are you up to now and where can we find you on social media?
Leah Smart (42:26.67)
Gosh, what am I up to now? So…
Right now I am at LinkedIn. I am our personal development editor. I study the science of well -being. So I’m focused on, as you mentioned earlier in my bio, sharing the science and research -backed evidence, or I should say the evidence -informed science around how we live well. That includes work. That includes our emotional health. That includes, you know, our physical health, and that includes our relational health, among many other things. So I’m focused on sharing that and democratizing it for anyone out there so that we all have access to what I believe is information we never learned in school. We never learned how to have great relationships, how to manage our emotions, how to work well with others, how to be successful in our careers. I’m sharing that.
And so that’s what I’m up to is I’m doing that through the podcast, through my writing, through conversations, through my own just experience. And so I’m sharing that information with people so that they have access to it and they can share it with others and they can test it out. I think everything’s an experiment. So I’m wanting people to become better at self -experimenting and figuring out the ways in which they can construct their own version of a life while lived.
Mary (43:47.625)
Wow. Well, thanks for coming on today, Leah. It’s been a pleasure.
Leah Smart (43:51.278)
thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great.